OT ish Slow Windows

[The Natural Philosopher]

straw man. Unix systems were at that time built for a different purpose. wouldnt have been able to plug a 64 port serial card into your windows machine and have it just work, either.

[The Natural Philosopher]

you need the ath9k driver

It should be part of the default installation.

It is on my system and I have never been near and atheros chipped wifi card!

is the system working, but the card not recognised?

[dennis]

True, you would have had to put the driver disk in for something like that but they did work. Mind you I only ever put a 16 port card in a windows box and I don't know if you could get a 64 port card at the time. Made by brainboxes or something similar IIRC but it was much more than a decade ago.

You could get a linux driver for them, I used to sit near the bloke that wrote and maintained it so getting bugs fixed was easy.

[John Rumm]

One of the biggest linux security problems arise due to its widespread use "embedded" in commodity hardware. Vast numbers of routers and other infrastructure devices have well known security holes, but there is no automated mechanism to patch them, and little support from the manufacturers to support old kit either. This will become an ever growing problem as the "internet of things" grows.

You only need look at the results of the pwn2own style hacking competitions to realise that linux, IOS, android, OSX and other boxes are routinely compromised along with the windows ones.

[dennis]

Yes I have a couple of NAS boxes that I wouldn't expose to the outside world that run linux that are insecure and aren't going to get updates unless I put a different OS on them, my two lenovos and mybook have recently been patched to fix a few linux vulnerabilities. Its only taken about three months.

But linux types just say we are better than windows (usually XP) so we don't need to do anything. This is despite the fact that the majority of linux users wouldn't know if they had been hacked and were botnet controllers. The ones that do know how to never check because they actually believe the cr@p about being invulnerable no matter how many vulnerabilities are exposed.

[J.B.Treadstone]

Well curiously enough, it turned out that my distro was fixed before i even /read/ about the heartbleed problem! And although a bug was in Ubuntu for some time, it does not mean to say that /all/ distros were afflicted with the same thing.

Pwn2Own 2015? The final cracked bug count came to:

5 bugs in the Windows operating system 4 bugs in Internet Explorer 11 3 bugs in Mozilla Firefox 3 bugs in Adobe Reader 3 bugs in Adobe Flash 2 bugs in Apple Safari 1 bug in Google Chrome

However, it would appear that there were no Linux boxes present. When asked why Pwn2Own doesn't target Linux, Aaron Portnoy, Manager of the Security Research Team at HP TippingPoint said: "Linux is not an operating system that has widespread use with any /one/ particular distribution, flavor or configuration. So because of that, it's a hard target to hit.

No OS is impervious, however with Linux users do not usually have "root" privileges, like they do in windows. Typically they are given lower-level accounts. What that means is that even if a Linux system is compromised, the virus won't have the root access it would need to do system wide damage; but it is possible that /that/ user's local files & programs could be affected. No one else's.

Furthermore, a lot of windows users point to Android & say & say "Linux is just as bad as windows", which is not wholly true. Android is attacked in a totally different way from how a Linux desktop would have to be attacked.

While Android allows users to install software from outside Google Play & desktop Linux allows its users to install software from outside their software repositories, the majority of the software Android & Linux users install comes from a /trusted, centralized/ repository. Users open their app store or package manager, search for the program, & install it. In fact there is very little reason IMO why a desktop Linux user would /need/ to install software from outside their distro's repositories.

Windows desktop users OTOH have to open their browsers, search the web, download an application from a website, & install it manually. Many less-savvy users may end up downloading dangerous software or clicking a fake ?Download? button that leads to disguised malware.

[Mr Pounder Esquire]

I've got two laptops on Windows 8 to sort out. 31 viruses, 63 PUPS and 49% fragmentation so far. Ccleaner freed up 2,361MB of space and 496 registry errors. I'm not going after the duplicates. Somebody has stolen the "Start" button and I've struggled to even find the defrag prog. Defraggler said "One day" to defrag. The Windows one will be faster, then I can go back to Defraggler do the job properly. Basically I can't find f*ck all and W8 is a lump of shit.

[dennis]

Well win8 is less vulnerable than XP so just think of how bad it would have been with XP. You could recommend the very first version of ubuntu, its not as old as XP though.

[JHY]

No, its an example of coming up against the OS if you need to do that.

Unix systems were at that time built for a different purpose.

Never said they could.

[Vir Campestris]

My colleagues tell me that Linux is much better than Windows because when you get a kernel update you don't have to reboot the machine when you install it.

They've failed to explain when it starts being used.

Andy

[J.B.Treadstone]

Immediately, I thought that would be obvious.

[Huge]

Plugging in a USB stick and having it automounted has worked under Unix (and its relatives & descendants) for at least 15 years.

[Tim Streater]

Yes, I really don't know WTF Mr JHY thinks he's talking about. Sounds a bit like my win-fanboi brother and multiple screens attached to a computer.

[newshound]

Also, if you are a "serious" Word user (references, cross references) don't expect Open Office stuff to work correctly. Kingsoft, Libre Office, etc.

Don't get me wrong, Linux is fine for a lot of people, just not sufficient if you need to interchange files with a client using an MS Office system.

[JHY]

Sure, but what you snipped was the bit that showed that what was being discussed was Unix well before that when it didn?t.

[Huge]

[47 lines snipped]

I've been doing this for years. No-one's noticed.

[The Natural Philosopher]

you dont need to, know..

well fine.

The point being made by the link I posted is simple. Windows cannot overwrite a library file that is 'in use' by a running program.

Its not a question of the fact that that program wont get the update until it shuts down and restarts, its that the update cannot take place while it is running.

Its one of those windows 'features' that didt make any difference back in the day when updates came on a set of floppy disks once every 2 years and took and hour to apply.

Its the same with the awful disk systems and algorithms. de fragging used to be someting you do once every 5 years, now it is needed almost annually or worse, simply because the way the disk layouts work is utterly insane.

Unix was designed for multi tasking and multi users in a busy environment where one of the more important things was that you didn't take a machine with hundreds of users on it down unless you had to.

The internet was mostly BUILT out of Unix computers. Networking is in its blood.

Linux as 'son of Unix' took all the best features off it, and reverse engineered them. The result is that while Bill Gates and Steve Bullmer were busy adding chrome and tailfins to a dung cart., Linus Torvalds and the professionals were busy firstly making sure they had a totally reliable chassis, and then adding just enough of a dashboard and controls to drive it.

Sure the 'user experience' lagged windows - but the reliability of *nix platforms and the basic speed and efficiency of them was never in doubt, which is why apart from a few Windows desktop and laptop users, a few vanishing Symbian users and other legacy kit, and CISCOS IOS (and some dedicated low level OSes used by real time hardware on very small chips everyone else is using a *nix OS whether they realise it or not. And that includes all Macs post OS9 and all android devices.

There never was a 'year of unix' or 'the linux breakthrought'

What has happened instead is that the world has wherever possible not used Microsoft, because it costs and it runs like diarrhoea, but instead used a *nix derivative: As memory cost plummeted it simply became easier to stock in enough memory to run a more or less full *nix system even on a tuppeny ha'penny ARM chipset, which nonetheless probably has more processing power than an IBM mainframe of the 1970s...

My point is that *nix and Linux are the professionally engineered highly developed reliable ubiquitous operating systems in use on nearly all new devices.

The only exception to that is desktops and laptops, where there is a huge installed base of utter crap that has to be allowed for: And that's why the abortion called Windows 10 is on offer.

BUT - and its a huge but - the desktop and even laptop market is collapsing for domestic and consumer users. Fondleslabs, mainly running android (based on Linux as it happens) are taking over.

Only offices are really still buying PC's where they need to still run specialised windows apps.

But as each year passes the number of desktops goes down, and the number of free open source programs that do everything that paid for programs used to do, as well as, or in many cases better than, is increasing.

Windows strength was always the GUI - it wasn't great, but it was better than X-windows used to be...simply because the driving force of Microsoft was in that area, not in the fundamental sound engineering practice of 'what lies beneath'. OSX built on BSD Unix with a pretty decent GUI and that of course now exists, along with a decent developmnent toolkit to allow 3rd party apps developers to port to it.

Linux desktop design took a huge leap forward with the gnome project, as typified by Ubuntu, and that finally - in my opinion - overtook Windows in terms of sheer usability in the shape of MATE and Cinnamon - both being driven by a desire to recreate the main features of Windows XP and OSX , but better.

And that's Linux Mint: optimised for easy transition from XP or windows Vista, and unbelievably easy to install.

The reality is that Windows and Microsoft are now retreating into a niche market: Legacy desktops. They lost the embedded market, the real time market and the mobile market to *nix and derivatives thereof. They lost the server market years ago - they were never really there - and they never were in the mini/mainframe arena - that's all Linux these days as well.

If Microsoft had any sense they would have bitten the bullet the way Apple did, and produced a new version of Windows as a desktop app and GUI running on Linux/Unix.

They failed. They could have ported MS office to *nix. They failed.

The future will be *nix, simply because everybody who makes hardware or writes apps wants a platform that doesn't owe anything to a monster of a marketing company that dictates what you can do.

Its in everyones interest but Microsoft's to contribute and spend billions developing a common operating system that is license free, and that's what they have done. The list of companies actively supporting linux development is vast.

"Highlights include:

? Who is Writing Linux? o Every Linux kernel is being developed by nearly 1,000 developers working for more than 200 different corporations. This is the foundation for the largest distributed software development project in the world. o Since 2008, the number of individual developers has increased by 10 percent, reflecting the ubiquity of Linux across industries.

? Who is Sponsoring Linux? o More than 70 percent of total contributions to the kernel come from developers working at a range of companies including Red Hat, IBM, Novell, Intel, Oracle, Fujitsu, among many others. These companies, and many others, find that by improving the kernel they have a competitive edge in their markets. o Red Hat, Google, Novell, Intel and IBM top the list of companies that employ developers who are reviewing and approving Linux development.

? How Fast is Linux Developed and Released? o A net of 2.7 million lines of code have been added since April 2008. o An average of 10,923 lines of code are added a day, representing a rate of change larger than any other public software project of any size. o An average of 5,547 lines are removed every day, ensuring that the code is high quality and relevant for the most important implementations of the kernel. "

Linux isn't a nerdy geeky amateur operating system, Its a professionally written and supported massive engineering project in progress. No one owns it, but everybody contributes and everybody benefits.

Except Microsoft.

The only reason its not on the desktop more than it is, is because Microsoft still charges enough and allows manufacturers to charge for installing it on every PC you buy retail by and large.

And those application developers who make money out of selling software still want a platform that is of that model: But they are shrinking too

- the new model is either 'software as a service' - as a cloud app that doesn't need MS to access it or 'free code, paid support' for professional users.

Which is the Red Hat model, and largely the IBM model.

It doesn't matter how much we argue about the merits of Windows versus linux. The facts are what the facts are, and I doubt that Microsft will exist in its current form in ten years time, or indeed windows.

It faces the same difficult choice that IBM faced in the 70's and 80s when it had to recognise that by and large its real business was supporting large businesses in large application design and support: It make a lot less hardware than it used to, and it runs Linux more than any other OS.

The trouble is that MS has run out of things to add to Office that make sense. Its stuck with a creaky OS that is 20 years out of date and not fit for the internet. It still cant decide whether its in the professional or the consumer market, and is in danger of losing both.

Apple decided where it stood. Fashionable consumer hardware and high end workstation. Not operating systems.

Honestly if I were running Microsoft I'd probably leave.

[The Natural Philosopher]

Its just Windows fanbois dredging up 15 years old issues.

The far more pertinent linux problem is when hardware manufacturers want to retain rights to the driver code that supports their hardware. That means it cant be bundled directly with Linux and has to be installed as a 'with reservations' add-on.

Which is why there are still issues with some wifi chipsets and some video chipsets.

And rather a lot of scanner chipsets.

It makes getting those working far far more of a pain than it needs to be.

The other bugbear is the slow rate of desktop penetration due to inertia: its not worth porting apps for 5% of the desktop market, even if the user base were happy to pay for them.

Of course of they all did, then there would be no reason not to use Linux. Its a marketing catch 22 that Microsoft has been able to exploit

- but as you can see with some of the apps, why pay for Photoshop and Windows when Gimp/Linux does *most* of what *most* people want out of an image editing program.

Why pay for Quark or InDesign when Scribus does *most* of what you want from a desktop publishing program..

These guys are cutting their own throats.

And then there is virtualisation: Machiens fast enough and with enough RAM can now run windows in a sandbox where its vulnerabilities and instabilities are not exposed, if they actually need to still run legacy windows apps. Unless those apps need direct access to low level OS tricks to drive specialised hardware.

OK you still need to pay for windows and the app BUT at least when it crashes you don't have to reinstall everything: Just roll back to the last stable snapshot - you did make sure the data you created wasn't inside the windows environment didn't you?

[J.B.Treadstone]

I've done it quite a few times, with spreadsheets, documents etc, & those people using MSOffice haven't complained.

[Bob Eager]

Shame about Symbian. I had to stop using the joke in my operating systems lectures:

"Whatever you do, don't leave the 'm' out..."