Flues cross my boundary - whar are the regs

[Kev Parkin]

(Apologies if this double posts - tried once and google crashed)!

I have just got back from a long weekend away to find that my neighbour has installed a cooker hood flue (at eye level) and a boiler flue (at first floor level) through the external wall of his house that bounds my property.

There is also a 15mm open ended copper pipe and two 110mm dia. holes also at first floor level.

The hood flue sticks out by about 20mm, the boiler flue by about 300mm and the 15mm copper pipe by about 50mm, the two 110mm dia. holes are flush but it looks like they have (grey) soil pipe fittings and are waiting to have an external stack fitted.

The offending wall is about 1m from the wall of my house and the boundary fence on that side (from the bottom of the garden to his house is my responsibility, I don't know if this matters).

The passage is the only access from my back garden to my front garden and is used regularly, especially by the kids!!

I know that the condensate from condensing boilers is acidic and that the flue can produce nuisance plumes of vapour and I guess it is not good to have these discharging directly onto my property. I am also concerned about the odours from the cooker hood flue.

I'm not a controversial neighbour and probably wouldn't have minded him doing these jobs if only he'd discussed it with me first.

Does anyone know what the regulations are concerning these issues as I would like to know where I stand before I confront him.

TIA,

Kev

[Michael Mcneil]

He sounds like a right #. He didn't want you to have the opportunity to refuse permission obviously. The houses on the site I am working at all have similar utility problems(?) like that. I would have queried that if I was buying one of them. One inmate even had the washing machine outlet from next door pouring into the trap for it with a section of the outlet missing and no attempt to put the pipe through the grid in the trap.

How the surveyor missed that escapes me. Perhaps he is liable? I have no idea of the legality of it all but there is a thread on here somewhere about not getting into disputes with your neighbours if you want to sell up.

If you do want to persue it psyche yourself up to take no nonsense. If you are unhappy with it, tell him and stick to your guns. DO NOT GIVE AN INCH! Don't smile and don't apologise in any respect. Just state your case plainly and curtly and leave it at that. Don't allow any argument to develop. If he wants to discuss it further let him do it later.

Just say next time you see him: "Look; I'm not hapy with this, so and so and so and so." Then just walk away. Don't speak your mind don't tell him your reasoning, just explain what you are unhappy with. It isn't a dispute and you haven't given any ground or tried to second guess him.

The onus is then on him.

That in my considerable opinion is how to handle most events of that nature. (That and breaking windows.) Too many people these days don't know where the boundaries are, because too many people are afraid to put their feet down.

[Colin Wilson]

OK, i`m not a gas fitter or lawyer, so no doubt a more knowledgeable answer will follow shortly, but...

If its a fanned flue then there might be an issue with the installer - most want a horizontal spacing of over a 1m I think - I think mine (a non-condensing) wants about 1.5m minimum

I thought condensate drains had (*HAD*) to be plumbed in to a soil stack or similar. If he is putting in provisions for a soil stack, it sounds like he`s going to have to dig up that passageway to get it into the sewer at some stage !

I`d say the first step would be to check your deeds urgently to figure out whether the passageway is a shared access (whether currently used as one or not), and who the land belongs to. If its a shared access it may be a joint responsibility rather than your land.

I probably would be too if it was over my boundary - irrespective of any smells - as it might incur a right of access for maintenance purposes in future (which he probably has anyway for repointing the brickwork etc)

Perhaps posting to uk.legal or uk.legal.moderated might be in order too

[Dave Plowman]

As regards the cooking smells, I can't really see what the difference would be if the hood outlet was just round the corner from where it is on a wall you'd obviously have no interest in. Whether you notice them will depend on the prevailing wind conditions. A bit like the constant barbecues we get round here...

[Andy]

Building regs approved document J - link below.

my understanding a boiler flue must be at least 600mm away from a facing boundary. Therefore if his wall (through which the flue projects) forms the boundary then this arrangement is not acceptable - speak to Building Control Officer at the local council.

A.

[Andy Hall]

Are you saying that these things actually go *over* the boundary - i.e. the side wall of his house forms the boundary?

As I understand it, and I'm not a lawyer, roofs are allowed to overhang a property line within reason (especially if original roof) - whether this extends to flues etc. I'm not sure.

You would need to get professional advice on it.

It is but should be directed to a drain. If the 15mm pipe is for condensate, then it contravenes the installation requirements of the boiler by not being connected to a drain and should be in plastic anyway.

The condensate is only mildly acidic so would not burn your skin or anything like that. It might be uncomfortable in an eye though.

Do you know if it is a condensing boiler? In any case, the amount of pluming depends on the boiler design - some are worse than others. Newer and better designs do not deliver major amounts, although I agree that into a 1m space it's not good.

On the boundary issue, I think you have to get professional advice. From the operational regulations point of view of the boiler etc. I don't think that anything has been contravened.

Ultimately you have to decide whether you want to pursue it. There are two factors.

- you have to live next door to him

- if you enter into any official dispute, this will come up if and when you sell the property.

.andy

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[G&M]

Phone and ask your local building control officer why he approved it. He will of course be right round as I expect he hasn't heard about it.

[Andy Hall]

Interesting point. The distance of 1m would allow the safety requirements to be met - i.e. 600mm or more from facing wall, but the Building Regulations do define a boundary as "the boundary of the land or buildings belonging to and under the control of the building owner"

.andy

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[tony sayer]

In article , Andy writes

Perhaps your best bet might be to take some measurements and/or pictures and then get the local BCO to have a look at them, and see if he reckons any wrongdoings been dun.

Much cheaper and far less bother then falling out unnecessarily with a neighbour and lining the plush pockets of me 'learned friends:(

[Andy Hall]

He wouldn't have had to approve it if the installation was done by a CORGI fitter since CORGI has an approved self-certification scheme which exempts the need to inform Building Control.

If the neighbour DIYed it, then he should have submitted a building notice.

If A.N. Other did it for money, then that is illegal and CORGI could have an interest. However, how the OP would find out is another thing, and whether CORGI would then be interested or have any powers to act is another matter.

It's still worth a BCO discussion on the boundary issue at least.

.andy

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[Robert]

Four interesting questions here: (1) is he allowed he put the pipes etc over the border and (2) even if he made the outlets flush with the side of his house is he allowed to discharge into your 'airspace'. (3) are you allowed to remove the offending bits of pipe and (4) are you allowed to block the pipes?

Sounds like uk.legal would be a good place to ask all this.

R

[Dave Plowman]

It sounds like the passageway between the houses is shared - so where is the boundary in this case?

I've got a similar thing - my house is a Victorian semi, and there's about a 1 metre passage shared with next door. Just nicely too small to allow wheelbarrow access because of downpipes. And if they wanted to vent anything into that passage I wouldn't object - unless it were to cause physical damage to my walls.

[Dave Plowman]

Sounds like a good way of ruining relations with a neighbour.

Just how much time do you spend in the passageway between two houses if it's only a metre wide? If you took any action which forced him to alter the layout of the inside of his house because of this, I'd call you unreasonable.

[Nige]

Nice! I'd be interested to hear how this one turn out.

[David H]

Fan flued boilers should have there flues positioned so they are more than 600mm from the boundry.

If it is less than 2metres from the ground it should have a guard round it.

The flue should be more than 600mm from a facing wall.

To quote from a glowworm condensing boiler instruction book "The flue will produce a plume of condensation in cold weather, so specia care must be takenin siting the flue terminal so as not to caue a nuisanceto adjacent property"

As you say there is a 15mm pipe stickng out of te wall I would guss it is a combi boiler and this is the saftey pipe from the pressure valve. If it is then it is incorrectly fitted. if the valve were to blow, steam and boiling water at 3bar (thats 43.5psi. in old money, twice the pressure of most car tires) would be comming out of this pipe. Just imamage walking past when the valve blows...... scarred for life......

If this pipe was a condensate drian from the boiler I would expect it to be 22mm pipe and this should go into a soil pipe or drain gulley.

Does your garden go up to your neighbours wall, if it does, from what you say, it would appear that it is an illegal installation.

If there is a 600mm gap on there side of the fence,between the fence and the wall then it might just be legal.

David.

[David H]

Just re-read your post, you say the flue protroudes through the wall by about 300mm this is a no no. Not knowing the make of the boiler, but most flues only protude the wall by between 75mm and 125mm 3/5 inches. depending on make of boiler.

David.

[Andrew Gabriel]

I've noticed quite a few balanced fanned flues protruding very much more than this recently. Sometimes it might be because they are below eaves, and they have been installed to protrude past the edge of the eaves. Looks rather unsightly, but seemingly becoming rather common.

[Kev Parkin]

Thanks for all the advice, to try and answer some of the questions in the above posts:

a) There is no shared access

b) The neighbours wall forms the boundary to my property

c) The flues/pipes etc protrude directly from the wall, hence are on my property

d) There is no garden between the wall and my path

e) The passageway is the only access from the back to the front of the house for pushchairs, bikes etc, so is used daily

f) I don't know what type of boiler it is - if it's a combi this would make it worse.

g) There is no fence the wall is the boundary

Once again thanks for the input, I think I'll have a word with him and then take things further if that doesn't have any success.

Kev

[Harry Ziman]

What about access for the installation? Did they trespass for this purpose or have I missed something

[Andy Hall]

Kev,

I think that you have to decide what outcome you are looking for and its implications.

If you go and see him now, what are you going to say? Do you just want to mark his card to the extent that you are disappointed that he did this without asking and leave it there? Do you want him to get the probably obvious issue of the pressure relief pipe redone properly so that it is safe?

From the perspective of the flue, where he has it now - i.e. 1m from a facing wall, meets the gas safety requirements but there is the possibility of encroachment on your property by virtue of the Building Regulations and the distance of the flue from the boundary - minus something. Do you want him to move the boiler? If so, you'll need to check the facts first with the BCO.

I think if it were me, I'd decide how far I'm willing to take the issue first and what I want for an outcome, then check whether I have the backing from a regulatory perspective for it. I would also consider the implications if it did become an "official" dispute and factor that in as well. Only then would I go and see him, having got a full hand of cards.

If you go and see him without checking the possible regulatory remedies, then you could make the issue worse if he tells you to take a hike, because you then have to go back to an inflamed situation with the big guns, or if there is no basis for compalint, you are stuck.

If you do it on a "were you aware that" and "this is a potential safety issue" and "I'm sure you don't want to create a hazard" basis and then mention that you've looked into the gas safety and building regulations if you need to do so, I think that you can make it a lot simpler.

Just a thought....

.andy

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