Which of these 4 spots (2 on tire, 2 on wheel) are supposed to be lined up?

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On 7/15/2013 9:20 AM, blue bmw wrote:
...[big snip]...

...[snip]...
And, the biggest thing (unless you're racing or have some other very unusual issue) is the final thing Bridgestone says in their pamphlet --

All in all, it'll never be anything you'll ever be able to tell whether was or wasn't used in all likelihood.
IOW, "tempest in teapot", basically, for average passenger car and tire and driving.
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On Mon, 15 Jul 2013 12:51:41 -0500, dpb wrote:

I understand. The match-mounting issue (red dot to valve stem) may be a tempest in a teapot.
But what about the other unprofessional things that happened?
1. Prying the twist-off BBS/BMW hubcaps with a screwdriver? 2. Not removing all the wheel weights? 3. Attempting to balance with a visibly thick coating of dried mud? 4. Torquing all lug bolts to the wrong torque? 5. Putting the wrong air pressure in the four tires? And, the worst of all ... 6. Charging a fraudulent price saying on paper and in words, it's the special "Tire Rack" price when Tire Rack explicitly guarantees a different (lower) "Tire Rack" installation price?
Note: I have signed paperwork on the price issues that is incontrovertible, which shows the fraud, since they KNEW what they were doing, and STILL did it!
PS: Ask for documents and I'll show you. They're all on my phone, so, I will gladly post but first I have to document all this for tire rack because they told me to send it all to: installer support @ tirerack dot com
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On 7/15/2013 3:56 PM, blue bmw wrote:

...[snip]...
Use a cut-rate low-cost outfit, what do you expect?
I use a(*) local independent, locally-owned shop, don't worry about price much and get good workmanship that I don't ever worry about from guys I've known for years--some of the shop guys have been there over 10; there's nothing they've not seen in that time.
(*) Actually two; one has a Michelin distributor; one doesn't and one also does more ag tires so they're the choice there and for the large trucks.
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On Mon, 15 Jul 2013 19:48:14 -0500, dpb wrote:

One thing I expect is that they "say" they have a "Tire Rack" price yet they charge you for another. That's outright fraud.
I almost had to laugh, when I got back into the car, and on the floor was a paper mat saying they torque all the lugs to manufacturer specifications.
Remember, they torque *all* lug bolts and lug nuts to 100 foot pounds, no matter *what* car it is! I had to get out my Bentley to show *them* that it wasn't 100 foot pounds!
So, I don't expect fraud and deceit from *any* commercial establishment. Do you?
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On 7/15/2013 9:07 PM, blue bmw wrote:

I'm sure somewhere in the fine print it's pretty much covered...
...[snip]...

I'd not be surprised by much at such outfits as the big-discount tire places...but I don't trade at any owing to such.
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On Mon, 15 Jul 2013 23:47:16 -0500, dpb wrote:

Tire Rack confirmed, and removed this Midas from their recommended installer program.
They'll be out for six months, and then they need to petition to be put back on.
Small victory for the little old lady ...
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On Mon, 15 Jul 2013 23:47:16 -0500, dpb wrote:

That's not what Tire Rack told me. http://www.tirerack.com/installer/index.jsp That's not what's printed on the Tire Rack web site. http://www.tirerack.com/installer/whatis_pp.html And, that's why Tire Rack (Ken Tener, Recommended Installer Program Coordinator) booted them from the program.
The amount of BS being spouted in this group is amazing. It's too bad. I had expected more astute technical information.
I guess it's *my* fault for trusting Tire Rack's recommended-installer program (although they did immediately cancel their contract with Midas when I reported this to them and they verified it); and it's again, *my* fault for asking here.
I had expected more from this group. I had expected more from Tire Rack's recommended installer program. And, I had expected more from Midas.
All three are my fault.
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On 07/17/2013 06:06 AM, blue bmw wrote:

??????????? that says it all!!!

you got that right at least!
--
fact check required

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On Mon, 15 Jul 2013 00:37:06 -0700, Ashton Crusher wrote:

I was thinking the same thing!
The stick of inside weights looks kind of permanent while the rim weight is clearly huge and most would rip it off.
So I was mostly asking what they do with that stick of weights!
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Those dots are a /starting point only/. The theory is that by, for instance, matching the low spot on the rim with the high spot on the tire it will be easier to mount the tire so as to spin smoothly. This is necessary before starting the balancing procedure.
In practice, an aftermarket tire installer will often not have the rim's dots available, and will mount the tire as his personal preference dictates. He will spin the bare wheel, making sure it's actually in-spec for that automaker. He will find the low spot(s) on the rim by eye. He may try matching the high spot on the tire with the low spot he found on the rim. He may try the light spot on the tire opposite the valve stem.
Either way, the idea is to get the tire to spin smoothly before balancing. "Smoothly" means that, as the tire is spun, the tread does not hop up and down or squirm from side to side. As a proxy for that, many tire installers will observe the rubber ridges on the tire that sit immediately outboard of the rims. If this ridge is perfectly even all the way around relative to the rim, he will consider the tire to be mounted properly. To me, having that ridge sit evenly should be backed up by actually studying the tread as the tire spins. This means lifting the machine's guard and spinning the tire slowly while watching the tread. If the tread hops or squirms, then there will be vibration or harshness on the road even if the balance appears to be perfect.
If the tire won't spin smoothly no matter what, then the installer will turn the tire 180 degrees and try again. And then move it again.
THIS IS ASSUMING THE TIRE INSTALLER KNOWS TO DO THIS! A lot of cheapo shops will simply throw the tire on the rim, balance, and be done with it. Little or no checking or matching of any kind.
Proper mounting requires proper tire lubricant. Some aftermarket shops will use inferior substitutes, such as soap-and-water. These will impart an unacceptable level of friction between tire and rim, and prevent the tire from popping in place all the way. This will result in a tread that hops and squirms.
Sometimes drive-tires will rotate on the rim before all the tire lubricant has a chance to squeeze out. To detect this, a chalk or grease-pencil mark should be placed on the tire and rim. If the client comes back complaining of vibration, the installer can check those marks and see if they have come out of alignment. If they have, then the client has ignored the admonition to accelerate and brake gently for a few days.
Many tires returned to tire makers as "defective" are actually fine; they were damaged by poor mounting techique. Tire makers can tell this by the marks the rim leaves on the bead.
A Hunter road-force machine cannot compensate for poor mounting, all it can do is alert the installer that somesthing's wrong. The Hunter machine first requires proper mounting in order to work as intended.
Costco goes through a large vvolume of tires. Their employees receive training directly from the tire makers in the proper mounting procedure. You are more likely to receive correctly-mounted and -balanced tires from Costco than from them than from most tire shops.
And yes, all dirt and old weights should be cleaned off the wheel before new tires are added.
--
Tegger

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On Mon, 15 Jul 2013 12:34:53 +0000, Tegger wrote:

Hi Tegger, That's the whole point!
The tire installer doesn't even START installing tires correctly (unless we tell them how to mount our tires properly!).
The result, from their invariably bad starting point, is that more weight is eventually added than was needed, and that's bad from various points of view, especially when/if one of those weights subsequently falls off.
A) The wheel is *really* out of balance by then B) The environment doesn't need millions of pounds of lead that never was needed in the first place.
So, thanks for stating that the whole point is to figure out the correct *starting point*!
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Tire installers can't rely solely on the paint marks. Sometimes you're mounting used tires, or swapping snows and summer tires for a customer who has only one set of wheels. Dots can disappear after a couple of winters.
In those cases you need to know the basics of mounting and of how to get the tire to spin true on the rim. In such cases, you need to guess at first, then correct as needed until the tire spins true.

More weight does not correct for poor mounting. If vibration doesn't happen immediately, it will occur once the the tread wears unevenly from the poor mounting, no matter how much weight you stuck on there.

Not out-of-balance, but out-of round. Getting it round /before/ you balance is the point. You can stuff the rim full of weights, but you're only (maybe) masking, not curing. See my paragraph above.
If in doubt go to Costco. At least their installers have some official training from the tire companies.
--
Tegger

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On Mon, 15 Jul 2013 18:14:27 +0000, Tegger wrote:

Costco is good.
And, they throw in a lot of extras for free.
But the waits are tremendous.
And the tire selection minimal (hence cost is about double).
But, other than that, they're great, I agree. I get gas there all the time, for example.
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On Mon, 15 Jul 2013 05:48:50 -0400, Steve W. wrote:

If this is true (and it very well may be), then why do my replacement tires come with both the red and yellow dots, and why do the Yokohama and Bridgestone articles and TSBs I provided say to mount the rim with respect to those dots for replacement tires?
Do you see why this is confusing? That's why I'm trying to find the answer.
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blue bmw wrote:

The reason is that any company that sells to an auto manufacturer has to mark the tires sold to them as OEM fitment. Say Bridgestone makes 100,000 pieces of a certain tire. The auto maker says "Hey we want 64,000 of those delivered by Friday" By marking ALL the tires they can just grab that amount and ship them. The rest go to wholesale/retail outlets. Those have the marks simply because of economics. It is like any other commodity item, if you sell to a customer that requires a certain coating or material it is easier to make the entire run the same way and sell the "leftovers" elsewhere.
Also be aware that unless the tire you are fitting is the EXACT same tire (make, model, molding, rubber compound, size), the new tire is going to perform differently. You can take 5 different tires of the same size from 5 different brands or even model tire from the same brand and they will measure differently.
Did you know that in reality there is no such thing as a 15/16/17 INCH tire? That in reality they are all produced using metric measurements but still use the inch designation for easier identification?
--
Steve W.

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Blue,
Geez, did you read the articles that you cited? " In the end, the markers have little, if any, relevance when replacement tires are installed." And "The only way to accurately match-mount a tire to a wheel is to actually measure tire and wheel runout. The end goal remains the same: to align the tire's high point to the wheel's low point." Forget the dots. Neither article supports their use. If match mounting is important to you you'll need to find a shop that can do it.
Dave M.
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On 07/15/2013 01:01 PM, David L. Martel wrote:

Theoretically the dots have meaning, but I do agree with two other important points mentioned in this thread.
1) On a used wheel the high spot and low spot probably aren't where they were when the wheel was made, unless you live on a billiards table. So while the dots on the tire may mean something, the marks on the wheel are questionable, and it is not necessarily warranted to criticize a tire guy for giving you your car back with the dots in a different place than the procedure says they should be. Doubly so if the wheels have ever been reconditioned.
2) The best way to achieve a smooth vibration free ride is to patronize a shop that has road force balance equipment and the guy using it knows how to use it properly.
nate
--
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The best way to achieve a vibration-free ride is to patronize a shop that knows how to mount a tire that spins true BEFORE anythng else is done.
Road-force equipment is nice to have, but is far from essential.
--
Tegger

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On 07/15/2013 02:34 PM, Tegger wrote:

I'd agree with that too. And the tire guy should be checking that the rim spins true without hops or lateral runout before even thinking about mounting the tire, especially if the customer complains about a vibration with the old tires. Unfortunately, as I have found, you can't trust that that will happen, you have to either know a good guy or get a recommendation for one.
nate
--
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Costco. Oddly enough.
--
Tegger

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