Load center replacement

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and extension cords are a trip hazard too. a visitor could easily trip on a extension cord.......
all ecause someone refused to replace their aged 100 year old K&T wiring. The hazards are more than just fire ones.
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On 11/9/2011 7:09 PM, snipped-for-privacy@snyder.on.ca wrote:

The NEC is applicable only as it is adopted by a local jurisdiction.
From wikipedia - one of hallerb's links "California and Washington, as well as possibly other states, have actually reversed the ruling on insulation around K&T. They did not find a single fire that was attributed to K&T"
Last I read there were at least 5 entire states that allow insulating over K&T. PA was not listed, but a state agency (hallerb's link) insulates over K&T. Some states don't have a code at the state level.

How do you know what the practice is in the US? Or all of Canada? Do you use a Ouija board, like hallerb?

"Exceedingly rare"? Your opinion.
I haven't seen particular K&T horror stories. I have seen some other wiring with horror stories. I ran a service truck for years and was in a huge number of houses.
Perhaps you and hallerb could stop generalizing your opinions to the whole USA
--
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wrote:

Are you an electrician???? Over the last 50 years ( 40 from 1956 to 2006)as an electrician my dad rewired a LOT of older homes - and he virtually NEVER found an "unmolested" K&T

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On 11/10/2011 5:50 PM, snipped-for-privacy@snyder.on.ca wrote:

I have been a licensed master electrician for over 35 years.

Was my mother's old house that was upgraded by licensed electricians "molested"?
My point through this whole thread is that generalizing between different states (and countries) is not always valid.

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wrote:

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On 11/11/2011 7:00 PM, snipped-for-privacy@snyder.on.ca wrote:

Let me try again. Did the licensed electricians "molest" my mother's old house? Does your FUD include work done by electricians?
--
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do tell does your moms home still have a fuse box? a outlet for every 6 feet of wall? multiple 20 amp outlets in kitchen? GFCIs for kitchen bath and outdoor outlets? are major appliances all on their own circuit? are all cieling light circuits isolated from all receptables? so a tripped breaker or blown fuse doesnt create a lights out and trip hazard? was all the K&T removed? I ask because the K&T insulation fails and falls off over time.
bud protests a lot, its possible he is attempting to convince himself all is well at moms house while it might not be.....
does moms house have working smoke detectors and carbon monoxide detectors? have you had the chimney cap inspected? is moms house truly safe?
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wrote:

been molested, but it still doesnt make it efficent, as safe as current code, modern or convenient.:(

muddy.(slip and fall hazard) Is the coal chute wall solid enough to keep the pile from collapsing into the rest of the celar? Or does it still have a woodshed instead? Is the ash bin still solid, or is it rusted through in the corner? Does she keep the ask bin in the woodshed or on the front porch?? (bad idea - many fires caused by hot ashes in the ashbin on the porch) Or is she using plug-in electric heaters on the K&T circuits?
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On 11/12/2011 8:46 AM, bob haller wrote:

A huge percentage of houses do not meet the current code. There is no requirement that they do.
Most people at a.h..r probably don't have a house that meets the current NEC.
My house, originally wired with rigid pipe and upgraded multiple times, does not meet all current NEC requirements for new construction. Contrary to your FUD is safe and efficient.

Not all of that is even code.
Everyone at a.h.r needs to upgrade their house to meet the current NEC. hallerb says so.

You are dumb as a rock

I have actually worked wit h K&T and don't have a fetish.

It was last time I was there before it was sold.
In this thread you have got wrong: - Clare needed to convert to breakers because of homeowners insurance. - you can't get insurance for fuses - you can never get insurance for K&T - you can never get insurance for K&T from State Farm - there is a "great chance of a loss" (K&T is intrinsically unsafe) - there are no boxes with K&T - if you open a wall with K&T it is "mandatory to upgrade" - homes with K&T can't be insulated - "posts here from insurance workers statements about K&T being uninsurable" - everyone's house should comply with current NEC requirements for new construction
--
bud--

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wrote:

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wrote:

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On 11/13/2011 1:18 PM, snipped-for-privacy@snyder.on.ca wrote:

Obviously gfretwell's fault.
--
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On 11/10/2011 6:19 AM, bob haller wrote:

You are creating a straw man to support your FUD.
K&T around here probably all had a 30A service. I have not seen one of them for maybe 40 years. If the service was replaced the electrical was upgraded. My mothers old house was upgraded about 50 years ago. Circuits and receptacles were added in the kitchen, bathroom and laundry. Receptacles were also added in some other rooms.
In any case, my State Farm agent said houses with some K&T could be insured here.
That simply blows your argument that you can't get insurance.
And others have said they didn't have a problem.
That blows your argument.
Of course you ignore all that - your fetish requires it.

The NEC applies to new wiring and changes every 3 years.
In this thread you have got wrong: Clare needed to convert to breakers because of homeowners insurance. you can't get insurance for fuses you can never get insurance for K&T you can never get insurance for K&T from State Farm there is a "great chance of a loss" (K&T is intrinsically unsafe) there are no boxes with K&T if you open a wall with K&T it is "mandatory to upgrade" homes with K&T can't be insulated "posts here from insurance workers statements about K&T being uninsurable"
--
bud--

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On 11/8/2011 5:45 PM, snipped-for-privacy@snyder.on.ca wrote:

Completely irrelevant.

Completely irrelevant.

No "record of hazard" was found by the HEAD ELECTRICAL INSPECTOR FOR MINNEAPOLIS. A lot of insulation has been installed over K&T in Minneapolis. It was installed in my mothers old house over 40 years ago. If there was a fire hazard the chief electrical inspector would know about it.
From hallerb we get California and Washington did not find a single fire that was attributed to insulation over K&T.
But maybe fires just happen in Canada.
I am interested in the US.
--
bud--




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On 11/8/2011 12:00 PM, bob haller wrote:

Anecdotal evidence proves astrology works.

I wasn't there and didn't talk to them.
Why does a state agency in your state insulate over K&T?

What posts?
In this thread you have got wrong: Clare needed to convert to breakers because of homeowners insurance. you can't get insurance for fuses you can never get insurance for K&T you can never get insurance for K&T from State Farm there is a "great chance of a loss" (K&T is intrinsically unsafe) there are no boxes with K&T if you open a wall with K&T it is "mandatory to upgrade" homes with K&T can't be insulated
--
bud--

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wrote:

Well, the VAST MAJORITY originally did not.Original K&T used a LOT of surface mounted switches, for example. Turn knob type in fact.
Many houses were modified as years went buy, with "modern" switches added - often including installation of boxes. A LOT of K&T was also "ring topology" - with both ends of easch conductor fastened together, so effectively the wire only carried approxemately half the load current. This in itself is not bad. But when changes are made to K&T wired homes, and additional circuits are added, it is not out of the ordinary for the ring circuit to be eliminated - and now the single wire is carrying the entire load - which is also significantly higher than the original load. An un-modified, original K&T wired home, with no additional insulation added, and no extra outlets installed, is AT LEAST as safe as a modern home, electrically. But they are EXTREMELY rare.
Much the same can be said of newer homes - including those with ALUMINUM wiring. Unmolested wiring is often safer tha "updated" wiring.
If buying a house I'd rather buy an unmolested, original, 1950's or 1960's house needing renovation than one that has been renovated several times and "updated" to make it more saleable.
The seller can save their money and agravation and just lower the price - then I can have whatever renovations and upgrades made, knowing what standard of work was done, and not having to tear out all the updates to fix the underpinnings that "supposedly" make it all work.

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wrote:

Seen WAY too many screwed up reno's. A lot of them done just to "update" a house for sale - where they would hae been FAR better just selling the house "as is", since ALL of the renovations had to be torn out and done over just to make the house liveable.
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wrote:

to the hilt AND they need to spend big money to fix the "unknown troubles" hidden by the "renovations"
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On 11/6/2011 11:56 AM, snipped-for-privacy@snyder.on.ca wrote:

I have not seen K&T surface mount switches here.
I see no reason to believe that the "VAST MAJORITY" of K&T installations here did not have boxes.

Far as I know ring circuits were never used in the US. They are common in post WW2 UK, but are a code violation here.
It would help if local practice was not generalized to everywhere, particularly from Canada to the US. My comments on your service tried to make clear what I said was practice in the US. This is hallerb's major problem.

OMG - that is heresy to hallerb.
My mothers old house was "modified" and is much safer now than it was.
In a report to the Illinois Department of Commerce and Community Affairs on adding insulation around existing K&T wiring the head electrical inspector in Minneapolis said no record of hazard was found in the large number of K&T installations that had insulation added around them.
--
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wrote:

renovation, upgrade, and rural electrification work.
Of the houses he had to re-wire from K&T to "romex" in the seventies, the VAST majority had NO boxes, and surface mounted devices. The house we bought in 1957 was about half surface mount and half "push-on/push-off" mounted in the walls without boxes.
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