Energy savings of a ' fridge

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Excuse me. You made the claim that in your experience refrigerators run constantly when making ice. So, which is it? Your OPINION based on physics calcs you haven't done, or your actual observation. I'll say it again. In my experience, with my own refrigerator, it DOES NOT COME EVEN CLOSE TO RUNNING ALL THE TIME WHILE MAKING ICE.

Hmmm, first we have the physics defense, now you say you haven't even made any actual calculations. So, it's pure speculation.

That the DOE tests don't include ice makers does not equate to ice makers result in the refrigerator running all the time. Or that sublimation of maybe 1/3 of a container of ice during a month is a big deal energy wise. All we have is your pure speculation. You have any references to back any of this up?
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Deduction is not speculation. The whole point of engineering analysis is to predict things you haven't tried by use of mathematical laws instead of trial and error. I assert this cup of coffee will run downhill if I spill it. That's speculation?

Early in this thread I cited the US CFR section that specifies the DOE testing procedure (no doors, no contents, no icemaking). Physics and thermodynamics are textbook subjects.
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It's pure speculation when you claim that ice sublimation is a large or dominant factor in how much energy a refrigerator uses. You have NOTHING that shows how much energy this amounts to. It's also pure speculation that making ice in the quantities a typical home would use is a big factor in how much energy a refrigerator uses, because again you have NOTHING to base this on.
I can tell you one thing you're dead wrong on. You claimed that a refrigerator that is making ice runs nearly constantly. I told you that in my experience, that is simply not true. To support that, I did a little test yesterday. I emptied out 1/3 of my ice container and kept an eye on the refrigerator intermittently for the next couple of hours. It did not run anywhere near to constantly. It appeared to run about the same as it does any other time, which is a small fraction of the time. I encourage anyone with doubts to try it.

That specifies the testing procedures used and was certainly good information for everyone. However, it does nothing to support your claim that ice sublimation is such a big factor or that a refrigerator runs constantly when making ice. For all you know, the EPA could have figured out that making ice in an average use situation makes only a 5% or 10%% difference in the amount of energy used and chose for simplicity to just ignore it.
And while physics and thermodynamics are textbook subjects, without even any rudimentary calculations, let alone real world tests, citing them doesn't do anything to support your case.
Now, what should I believe? My own eyes and ears seeing that my refrigerator runs only a small fraction of the time making ice or your obviously biased opinions, without supporting evidence?
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On Apr 21, 8:04 pm, snipped-for-privacy@optonline.net wrote:

I will simplfy it, I will make it easy, I get EPA yellow tag ratings, I tested mine, it works. I pay less than $5 a month to run my 19.5 cu. ft frige. Kinch pays 30 a month to run whatever, he is a sucker. Let him be a sucker or a moron, whatever. its his money, his waste, not mine or yours.
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Here's an Energy Star example:
http://products.geappliances.com/ApplProducts/Dispatcher?REQUEST=SPECPAGE&SITEID=GEA&CHANNEL=CH0000&SKU=PSB42LGRWV
They claim 606 kWh per year (8760 hours). So that's 606/8760 69 watts average consumption. Nowhere does GE seem to specify what the running power is, but based on my experience I would expect it to be 300 or 500 watts. So the duty cycle is claimed to be 69/300 or about 23 percent, actually less because we haven't counted the high-wattage defrost periods. We have to also guess at 1000 BTU/hr for the refrigeration unit based on its wattage. So this appliance is pumping maybe 6000 BTUs per day. Now you tell me how much ice you can make in one of these things running flat out, and we'll see how much the duty cycle has to increase to compensate at about 300 BTUs per pound of ice. Just to make a pound of ice per hour will more than double that duty cycle.
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You forgot to read , defrost cycles are included, , DID YOU TEST ONE of just moan again
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Moan moan moan, But you did no comparison, instead you admit you pay a total junker 30 a month
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Did you test your JUNKER against anything, no you did not
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Your basis on costs is not my basis , your 30 a month junker is just that, a junk , waiting to be junked
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Wrong its near 80- 90 , ninety watts, mr Kincho, the problem is you have ZERO present experiance , but you think you do, which is BS, you never tested anything new, you test only posibly defective junk your unit, you have no independant view, you have only a biased view. your opinion is truely worthless. and based HOW, on what equipment , and what new units did you test, YOU TESTED NO NEW UNITS, YOU ONLY TESTED YOUR OLD JUNK. Your opinion is therefore BULL SHIT
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A pound of ice per hour? 24 pounds of ice per day? How many people use that much???
- Don Klipstein ( snipped-for-privacy@misty.com)
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Don Klipstein writes:

You consumption is not the issue, it's the rate at which the unit produces when it's running flat out. The issue was what happens to the duty cycle when the thing is making ice. My claim is that making ice is a bigger BTU load than perfect "idling" (no doors, no contents, no icemaking).
I think part of the problem is that my side-by-side refrigerator is a recent "efficient" type and not that old, but it is a big 25 cu ft unit with a rather large icemaker in it. The freezer side is big but the icemaker and bin take up about 1/4 of it. At the time when I was last buying a refrigerator, it was clear that the big ones had the same heat pumps in them as the smaller ones, they just ran them on a higher duty cycle. Which makes sense.
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My kitchen fridge freezer compartment is 0.5 F at the moment. It contains about 30 pounds of frozen food. Unplugged and "idling," it could easily make a pound of ice with a 10 F temp increase (ice has half the specific heat of water.)
Nick
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Richard I have a big side by side, maybe 1982, my accurate KAW meter put its use at 14$ a month, my tenants with new 19.5 cu ft friges pay about 20 a month, some wifes run their tvs all day, use microwaves, vcrs, etc. Its a shame you pay 30 a month for a frige, I feel sorry for you, I just cant see your frige is running right or perhaps your measuring of power is off. My neighbors pay around 100 a month at Chicago rates of about 13.65 kwh and I pay under 40, for me its CFLs.
Try reading a review of a KAW meter, I think you will be suprised, get one and test a frige at a store, im sure the owner will like the idea. My 19.5 Kenmore I bought years ago at a different location came in at maybe .50c a month more than the Yellow Tag indicated. So it can be acheived. And 60 minutes -20/20 has had nothing on scam tests. The frige tests were done at up to 90f, with doors open on variable defrost models. But fact is , mine nearly matches Yellow Tag . Hundreds of friges are tested. Mine is not an Ice maker, but I make ice. to do as you say would add hundreds if not thousands of hours unessecarily hooking up Ice Makers and testing Ice, but the way they did it works, and so far you cant PROOVE it didnt work, since mine matces Yellow tags very close. Friend I have to say you are behind the times, and the time, oil is $117 a barrel, wake up my friend, your 30$ a month frige is suspect.
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That is a lot of guessing. I thought all your figures were based on fact.

24 pounds of ice per day = 3 gallons of water converted to ice. That is a lot of ice per day for a typical household.
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I can freeze a pound of water with 144 Btu on my planet :-)
Nick
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More than that. Maybe another 50 to chill it first. Plus wattage for a fan to blow air on it. And the defroster to take care of evaporation from blowing that air on it. Plus a reevaporator fan. And maybe the air conditioning. I would estimate more like 300 effectively.
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That's to cool it from 82 to 32 degrees F. Most peoples' cold water is colder than that.

You propose any numbers for these?

- Don Klipstein ( snipped-for-privacy@misty.com)
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We just bought a new refrigerator at work. I'm looking at the manual and it states that the ice maker can turn out 2.5 to 3 pounds of ice per day. That won't affect the duty cycle very much.
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Yeah, and you'd have to keep removing ice from the bin to keep the icemaker running to get even that output. Otherwise it will fill the bin and stop.
Here, we're unlikely to use 3 pounds of ice per *month*, except for a few months in the summer.
    Dave
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