I priced 'Energy Star' refrigerators yesterday, and found a $200 (give
or take) difference in prices between them and like models not Energy
Star rated. It strikes me that it could take many years before any
savings on my electric bill would get me back the additional cost.
The way I look at it, if everything I purchase (of whatever) is a model
which uses the least amount of electricity, then *overall* I will have a
lower electric bill. Then I will have more extra spending money each month.
FYI I have been doing this for years and my electric bill last month was
$35. Money I spent years ago is paying off now.
Electric rates are not going down...
"Jethro" wrote in message
60% efficient gas furnaces are now outlawed for sale in the USA. At
60% efficiency, I pay a total of no more than $250 (at today's gas
prices) to heat my house for the entire heating season. To go up to
80%on a new furnace has a payback period LONGER than the furnace's
expected lifetime. The only way to economically justify going to an 80%
furnace is to assume that gas prices will at least double over the
lifetime of the unit, and even then the payback is marginal.
Buying Energy Star is the best, You need to look at the Yellow
Energy consumption tag inside the frige and calculate the cost to run at
Your kwh cost, not the old low cost printed.
Old non Energy Star friges are energy hogs, for many it is the largest
single electric user. My old non Energy star frige cost 220$ a year to
run, My several year old Sears 19.5cu ft costs 50$ a Year to run at
0.125 Kwh, verified with a 20$ Kill-A-Watt meter. Sears several years
ago Sears had the most efficient small friges, they may still do. You
can compare all friges costs to operate at Energy Star Gov. Yes you
will have a quick payback, a payback that will be greater every year, as
I know of no area in the US that will not have dramaticly higher
eleectric costs in the near future. Many areas of the US this next year
will have 15 - 25% increases in cost. Plan on electricity being double
in 6 years, plan ahead now to save with your purchases.
this is bs.
Even a 90 percent gas furnace only costs less than 2k, and by my
figures, you would save 84 a year by changing to that. If a 2k furnace
doesn't last you 20 years, you bought poorly, and that is 1680, and
there aint no furnaces for sale at 320 bucks
Hell, I'm fullo it, there are 93 percent efficient furnaces for sale on
ebay right now for less than a grand,800 bucks even. looks like no more
than a few hundred difference on the cost of the unit. Absolute no brainer.
Hmm, for a $250 ANNUAL heating cost, how does going to 90% save me $84/yr??
I am NOT a person to disconnect, unseal, and remove an old unit (now an
80% model), suport the AC plenum, put the new unit in, attach gas,
electricity, thermostat, plumb out the combustion exhaust air, reattach
to the AC plenum, and seal it all up. This is several hundred dollars of
20 years is just about average here with heating degree days of 1263.
Rust is the most common failure mode. We just don't hardly use them.
With a 60 percent furnace you are spending 250 bucks but only getting
150 worth of heat[250*.6] A 90 percent furnace would use 166 of gas to
output 150 worth of heat[150/.9] so 84 a year. 93 percent 5 bucks more.
the assumption in your post that you could not buy a 60 percent furnace
is that you are buying a furnace, thus the comparison is only valid
apples to apples, new furnace to new furnace, not new furnace to nothing.
condensing furnaces should not rust
In your climate a superinsulated house would be a better return, you
should never need heat. My moderately well insulated house does not drop
below 68 on a 32 degree night. could save the cost of the furnace and
History is history. Can't take back a decision made 4 years ago.
Now its 80% to anything else.
All gas furnaces will rust here. The rust is on the OUTSIDE of the
heat exchanger and it is due to our environmental conditions here, not
due to the condensation of the exhaust gas. www.hvacopcost.com, we are
in Zone 5, hot and humid.
We are agreed that R40+ in walls and ceiling has a better payback.
Still higher payback comes with a geothermal heat pump with EER near 30
and COP of about 5.
Information not previously available, and you WERE lamenting the
inability to buy a 60 percent furnace, thus that is what my math was
about. Anyway, assuming that the prices on ebay transfer to the real
world, you are looking at a 100 bucks maybe from an 80 percent to 93
percent. Maybe 8 year payback.
I bought an 86 percent boiler, because we have no gas in the street, and
propane never worked out no matter the efficiency it was always more
expensive. THat decision was made almost 3 years ago, and had I known
the oil prices in the intervening time, I would have bought the 3000
dollar condensing oil boiler Monitor makes, since it would have a
similar payback now, but at the time, with oil at 1.50 a gallon, it
would have taken forever.
Condensing furnaces IIRC, have stainless steel heat exchangers, the
acidic condensate is worse than rain. No rust
Its not rain that rusts the heat exchangers. Its long term exposure to
high humidity air that may have salt in it. Stainless steel DOES rust
in such conditions unless it is coated with a Terne coating.
Stainless Steel roofing in coastal regions will develop rust and fail in
under a decade if it is not properly coated. Such coatings won't work in
a gas furnace. Honda and Acura use stainless steel in the exhaust
systems in the cars they make. Nevertheless these cars do rust through
mufflers and tailpipes
Cars have stainless steel exhaust[type 409 btw] up to the cat because
the feds require all emissions components to last 50k miles.
If a roof was right on the ocean, it would doubtless rust, but after a
few hundred feet, the difference is negligable.
I live near the ocean[my house is a few hundred feet from salt marsh]
and nothing here rusts particularly.
It looks to me like the plating on the ss roofing is to make it less shiny
I cannot see how a furnace inside the house, drawing inside air[as all
low efficiency models would] could possibly rust from outside
conditions. It is far more likely that they never get up to temp from
short cycle and rust internally from the condensate sitting in them. or
the stack never gets above 212 and rusts out or drips back into the
chamber. 90+ models have a pvc output anyway. My shop is 20 feet from
salt water and has 2 10 yo 90percent furnaces. no worries
I am nottrying to be overcritical here, or even say you made the 'wrong'
decision, as I said, I made a similar decison based on old oil prices
at about the same time. I am just questioning the assumption that high
efficiency does not pay back, even at your usage
Someone else said Rust from rain, not you.I am arguing that outside
conditions have little or no impact on rusting of gas furnace heat
My new furnace has induced draft, so a fan starts up first, and runs for
30 seconds or so after the burners shut down. This will tend to purge
the combustion chamber of excess moisture resulting from combustion.
Induced draft uses SS tubing as its combustion chamber, with relatively
low air volume in the chamber. 60% models had long, thin combustion
chambers that had much more air volume in them, and no induced draft.
As the chamber cooled down, moisture from the exhaust coated the chamber
to slowly then evaporate. Rust..
Honda and Acura did the SS exhaust LONG before the EPA mandated a 50K
mile requirement.Their design forces extreme reliability due to the way
cars are driven in the big cities. Many of them are only operated on the
weekends to take the family out for a picnic, or a similar activity.
Trains and busses take most people to and from work, school and
shopping. Infrequent use means exhaust gases ALWAYS sit for LONG
periods to condense and cause Rust, so SS is mandatory.
For me, I did the math.
It wasn't worth it. I usually buy the mid range energy efficiency, not
the lowest and not the highest.
It's always good to look the matter over carefully.
It may, or may not, be best to buy Energy Star. It depends on you.
Depends on how "green" you are. Most of us look at the payback, others look
at the energy consumption and are willing to pay a premium to use less and
conserve. Like you, I usually find the middle range to be the best value
for my use. Nor will I buy a brand or model I don't like just because it
saves a few dollars in energy, bit I just won't like using it for years.
if you live in a cold climate, the "waste energy" is not totaly wasted
but is used in heating your home.....
you have to do the math..... figure the fridge runs 12 hours a day and
calculate how long it takes to save $200 in electricity...
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