Home ac having problems - freon doesn't seem to be circulating

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I played trumpet when I was in about 4th grade. Years later, I got a chance to try a bugle. I'd lost all the skill I had.
I couldn't even brass my way through. I tried, but I didn't have the pucker any more. I shoulda kept on with the lessons. I'd like to play, these days. Taken some piano lessons, but carrying a piano in a marching band is a pain in the brass.
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As old as your system is, it very likely needs professional cleaning. I'm sure a few on alternating havoc are tired of hearing me say "have your condensing unit professionally cleaned". I've found over the years that even condensors that look clean are often dirty. Which interferes with cooling, and drives the electric bill up. One Trane I cleaned, the amp draw dropped about amp after cleaning. Which is equivilant to turning off two 100 watt light bulbs.
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"Stormin Mormon" wrote

Grin, I'm hopeful that is all I need! In fact, it's a possible. I asked for servicing too.
Groan, when we got back they hadn't changedd the filters since we left in 2001. We even left then with with 6 of them (anticipating 3 years away).
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There are some people who don't maintain anything till it breaks. Sounds like you had those type of people.
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"Stormin Mormon" wrote

While I am willing to know when I need a pro.

I doubt I will see a problem. I don't know what to look for.

I have a company coming out tomorrow to check mine. I probably do not need a full HVAC reoplacement (combined heat and AC and heat worked while AC is under cooling). All I know we skipped HVAC maintenance while paying off 25,000$ in rental damage and some 5,000$ in materials to 'DIY' repairs.
I am pretty sure we just need added coolant. We have not done that in 3 years since return as as far as we lnow, it was last done in 1998. The renters were not bashful at all at getting contractors in the reducing their rent by the cost and filing after the fact but there is no referent to Freon added. Heck I was in Japan. I can just reasonably guess last fill was 1998.
In my case, still have AC but it is not as cool as it should be. Last year it was 'ok' but I recall it being better.
Professionals due in tomorrow to service the unit and do what is needed.
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OK just so you know, house AC systems have a hermetically sealed refrigerant circuit, that means the entire thing is all metal except for the Fusite where the electrical terminals enter the compressor. As such the system should NEVER require adding refrigerant EVER. If it needs any added then there is a leak somewhere plain and simple. Car systems however can sometimes require topping off every several years due to the refrigerant permeating through the rubber hoses.
And the term is refrigerant not "Freon" or coolant. Freon is DuPont's trade name for CFC and HCFC refrigerants manufactured by them This does include R22. However DuPont's trade name for HFC refrigerants such as R134a is Suva. Hence anyone you may hear referring to the refrigerant in their '94 or newer car as Freon is dead wrong. The same can be said for anyone with a new AC system using R410a
Coolant stays the same phase (solid, liquid, gas) as it carries heat around, refrigerant changes phases.
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brassplyer wrote:

Twice today I had to replace the combination fan/compressor capacitor on two different AC units. One of them was a Trane, the other a Goodman. Both capacitors had swelled so the top with the terminals had gone from flat to dome shape, this broke the connections inside the capacitor which kept the compressor from running. If you see a cylindrical or oval shaped capacitor with three connecting points for one or more 1/4" Faston or flat push on connectors, that could be your problem. Often there are separate capacitors but usually the manufacturer installs a combination capacitor. The red wire is usually the common going to the "C" terminal sometimes along with a purple wire, a brown to the "fan" terminal and an orange, yellow or blue to the terminal "herm" which is hermetic for the hermetically sealed compressor's "S" terminal. If it is the capacitor, I would recommend installing a 440vac rated capacitor if it already doesn't have one. Many are rated a 370vac and you can go up in voltage rating but it's not a good idea to go down in voltage rating. Check out this link with pictures:
http://www.paulstravelpictures.com/Air-Conditioner-Dual-Run-Capacitor-Replacement-Guide/index.html
http://tinyurl.com/66jdnv
TDD
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wrote:

With a 22 year old unit, and depending on how often it's used, the best thing may be to take advantage of all the fed tax credits and rebates availabe and get a new one. A new one is going to be significantly more efficient and use less electricity.
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On Apr 6, 8:37am, snipped-for-privacy@optonline.net wrote:

Difficult to make that call. If it is only used occasionally and it's just got a bad cap? Replace/repair decisions have a lot of factors. If it needs a compressor then yea, replace.
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Difficult to make that call. If it is only used occasionally and it's just got a bad cap? Replace/repair decisions have a lot of factors. If it needs a compressor then yea, replace.
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If it has a leaky evap coil, your already done... time to replace it. Generally, if the system is more than 15 years old, you would be better served by replacing the system. Here in south Mississippi, the energy savings alone will normally give an ROI of 4 - 5 years..... *provided* the system is correctly sized, and correctly installed, by a certified Master Tech..... not just the lowest bidder.
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Again, specific situation that may or may not apply to the op. Maybe he's in the upper pennisula, it just needs a little freon, and the guy has been laid off for 6 months now. You can list cases supporting replace and I can list cases for repair. My point was if you don't have all the facts you can't just make a blanket recommendation.
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Again, specific situation that may or may not apply to the op. Maybe he's in the upper pennisula, it just needs a little freon, and the guy has been laid off for 6 months now. You can list cases supporting replace and I can list cases for repair. My point was if you don't have all the facts you can't just make a blanket recommendation.
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In case you missed it, R22 refrigerant that is in the old systems if being phased out, and is rapidly going away. I give it 6-8 months before the *WHOLESALE* cost of R22 is going to jump to $500 for a 30lb jug..... before any mark-up, or the techs time to put it in. Add to that that the manufactures no longer make anything that takes the old refrigerant. You can pay me now, or you can pay me now, *and* pay me later. http://www.epa.gov/Ozone/title6/phaseout/hcfc.html
FWIW, in 2004 when production and importing of R22 was cut back 35%, the wholesale price jumped from $1,600 for a pallet, to $6,800 for a pallet. January 1st of this year, it was cut back an additional 75%, and in January of 2015(5 years from now) there will be an additional 90% cutback. The new systems with the "new" refrigerant (R-410a), use half the amount of refrigerant for the same capacity as the old ones, use a whole lot less energy to run them, and are extremely quiet. Where is there a down side to increasing comfort, and lowering utility bills, as well as getting tax credits, and manufacturer as well as utility company incentives??
BTW... according to Appliance Magazine, the average lifespan of heating and cooling systems is 13 - 17 years.
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wrote:
snip

I realize economic hard times require a flare in salesman ship but I have to take issue with a few things. The first one is the scare tactic about price and availability. Price wise r22 costs exactly $1.11 more per pound than r410a. Availability wise, r22 will be produced until 2020 although at a reduced rate as you said. How much the price will actually go up is based on a guess but Im willing to bet as r22 goes up r410a keeps pace.
The second one is the quantity of r22 in a 10 seer system vs r410 in the new minimal seer rating of 13. The 22 system held (arco aire) for instance 4.25# of r22 where as the new unit of the same size (2.5 tons) holds 4.10# of r410a. Not even close to half. The cost differential to fill both systems is less than five dollars.
That being said, sometimes I read some of the stuff here and wonder, is it mere ignorant misrepresentation or borderline dishonesty. I also wonder if sometimes when these sales pitches are given if you can actually see the sales mans nose growing.
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Too bad you couldn't cut it in the resi market, and had to resort to doing commerical/industrial in a union shop.
For now, the price of R22 has not yet started going up.... but its coming, you know its coming. Think back to the R12 phase-out. This is the same scenerio, but on a much larger scale.
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Steve wrote:

You could be partially correct. I have met a large number of Commercial HVAC techs that have switched to the light inductrial and residential markets. I also note some new licensing requirements coming in the upper states. They are going to redo licensing to :
(1)Masters    Cannot touch any work, but has to be in direct contact         with journeyman at all times on the job..Cell phone is         acceptable. Cannot bid jobs, but is under a contractor.
(2)Journeyman    Can do work and direct Apprentices and helpers.
(3)Apprentice     must work under Journeyman
(4)helper    Can only do menial chores, Wash van, Sweep floors and          not allowed to touch contract work.
There are also 4 vocation licenses. #1 would be a plumber under its own subgroup. #2 would be HVAC at one of the above levels. #2 would be Hydronics at one of the above levels #3 would be refrigeration at one of the above levels.
Which means in certain cases you would have a large number of licenses. It does appear to try and kill off the one man operations. The Unions under the Obama administration have been the drafters of this muck.
However...HVAC licenses will place up to 40 gallon water heaters for install and repair in our bailiwick. Any water heater above 40 gallons will require a Plumbers license.
Last but not least the Feds seem to be involved in eliminating the EPA licenses all the way up to Universal. For the replace system there will be a $280 filing fee and a $300 a year renewal and possibly more. If anyone has better data on any of this please post it. *******************************************************

What might increase it more is the fact that the 3 substitutes may be pulled from the market due to some international treaty that either has been signed or is waiting to be signed.

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wrote:

Resi is so easy even Stormy muddles his way through it. But hey if you find it challenging thats cool too. Yeah I know im just a lowly commercial/industrial union tech. Not quite as prestigious as a residential service mechanic but it pays the bills.

Its hasnt gone up? Okey dokie. Sorry Steve I wasnt trying to ruffle your feathers but your nose is growing.

All refrigerants have gone up and you know it. Still its no reason to use scare tactics to convince a customer to buy a new system for 5-15G's or what ever you charge when they have a bad compressor or something. Im all for energy efficiency and the like but sell it as such and if your real honest about it you would point out the pros and the cons of the newer equipment and let the customer decide whats best for his wallet. Thats how I operate
Even if 22 went up to a grand a 30 at that point you just use one of the drop in's for 22 at a much cheaper price. Like we did and still do with older r12 systems. We dont sell a new walk in or reach in because the old r12 system has a leak. We fix the leak and convert it to 414b or what ever you flavor of choice is. We will do the same thing down the road with 22 systems. I can just see it. you walk up to a million dollar chiller and you tell the customer OMG its got a leak, you need a new chiller. Yeah thats gonna fly. Not.
One more thing about this manual J stuff. I bet you a hundred bucks that you could have five manual J's done by five different companies and have five different results and every one of them would say they are right and the others are wrong. The old garbage in garbage out thingie. I mean really, theres like a 10% fudge factor built in to the damn thing so it isnt an exacting science now is it.
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On Wed, 07 Apr 2010 20:53:17 -0400, The King

    You wanna talk 'difficult' ? I talked to a place today that makes custom one-off equipment that does things like :
    Maintains high flow volume ( 500 GPM + ) process water at 0.5 C. Can you say 'on the hairy verge of becoming slush' ?
    Maintains other process high volume chilled flow water within 0.2 F precision of setpoint.     Does it LARGE ( is making a hundred tons of ice a day 'large' ? ), and in HOSTILE environments ( this ain't no little pansy-assed lab equipment living in a carefully controlled environment, this shit gets beat up by illegals all day every day ).
    Does it all while maintaining FDA-level 'food grade clean' EVERYTHING.
    I was impressed.
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On Wed, 07 Apr 2010 21:02:30 -0400, .p.jm.@see_my_sig_for_address.com wrote:

Sounds very impressive. I was talking to a co worker the other day about the new Danfoss Turbocor magnetic bearing 75 ton compressors that hes starting up on a multi stack. He said he was going to plug his laptop into the compressor and watch it run. It can ramp up from zero to 35K rpm in less than five seconds and is quiet as a get out. Technology marches on and we are a long way form the old standing pilot V800 days. I cant even begin to imagine where we'll be at in another twenty years.
http://www.turbocor.com /
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On Wed, 07 Apr 2010 21:27:08 -0400, The King

    You haven't been following Brobama :-)
    HERE'S where we'll be
http://www.granitegrok.com/pix/Campfire.gif

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On Wed, 07 Apr 2010 21:54:15 -0400, .p.jm.@see_my_sig_for_address.com wrote:

Ah retirement. lol
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