Home ac having problems - freon doesn't seem to be circulating

[.p.jm.]

You give him too much credit in the first half of that. Unless of course his mouth is empty, in which case I understand the comparison.

[The King]

Assuming he has a brain, it dosen't work very well.

[The King]

opps. corrected.

[Steve]

Too bad you couldn't cut it in the resi market, and had to resort to doing commerical/industrial in a union shop.

For now, the price of R22 has not yet started going up.... but its coming, you know its coming. Think back to the R12 phase-out. This is the same scenerio, but on a much larger scale.

[Don Ocean]

The latest word I have on R22 is that this year only 20% of what we normally use will be available. The large producing companies are indicating that the price will skyrocket and that it would be a good idea to purchase large quantities in advance. I suspect the companies are trying to create a shortage to drive prices up. Also it turns out that R134A is being scheduled for a phaseout in the future also. R410 and a few others are also to be replaced. It was stated that Carrier already has a replacement in their research facility. The socalled replacements will consist of HFO's and CO2. This information is merely being repeated and the source is a Johnstone Supply Training person.

[.p.jm.]

Welcome to the future of the cooling industry, after Brobama gets done 'reinventing America' for us.

On the bright side, at least it's a 'green' job .....

[Don Ocean]

You could be partially correct. I have met a large number of Commercial HVAC techs that have switched to the light inductrial and residential markets. I also note some new licensing requirements coming in the upper states. They are going to redo licensing to :

(1)Masters Cannot touch any work, but has to be in direct contact with journeyman at all times on the job..Cell phone is acceptable. Cannot bid jobs, but is under a contractor.

(2)Journeyman Can do work and direct Apprentices and helpers.

(3)Apprentice must work under Journeyman

(4)helper Can only do menial chores, Wash van, Sweep floors and not allowed to touch contract work.

There are also 4 vocation licenses. #1 would be a plumber under its own subgroup. #2 would be HVAC at one of the above levels. #2 would be Hydronics at one of the above levels #3 would be refrigeration at one of the above levels.

Which means in certain cases you would have a large number of licenses. It does appear to try and kill off the one man operations. The Unions under the Obama administration have been the drafters of this muck.

However...HVAC licenses will place up to 40 gallon water heaters for install and repair in our bailiwick. Any water heater above 40 gallons will require a Plumbers license.

Last but not least the Feds seem to be involved in eliminating the EPA licenses all the way up to Universal. For the replace system there will be a $280 filing fee and a $300 a year renewal and possibly more. If anyone has better data on any of this please post it.

*******************************************************

What might increase it more is the fact that the 3 substitutes may be pulled from the market due to some international treaty that either has been signed or is waiting to be signed.

[The King]

Resi is so easy even Stormy muddles his way through it. But hey if you find it challenging thats cool too. Yeah I know im just a lowly commercial/industrial union tech. Not quite as prestigious as a residential service mechanic but it pays the bills.

Its hasnt gone up? Okey dokie. Sorry Steve I wasnt trying to ruffle your feathers but your nose is growing.

All refrigerants have gone up and you know it. Still its no reason to use scare tactics to convince a customer to buy a new system for

5-15G's or what ever you charge when they have a bad compressor or something. Im all for energy efficiency and the like but sell it as such and if your real honest about it you would point out the pros and the cons of the newer equipment and let the customer decide whats best for his wallet. Thats how I operate

Even if 22 went up to a grand a 30 at that point you just use one of the drop in's for 22 at a much cheaper price. Like we did and still do with older r12 systems. We dont sell a new walk in or reach in because the old r12 system has a leak. We fix the leak and convert it to 414b or what ever you flavor of choice is. We will do the same thing down the road with 22 systems. I can just see it. you walk up to a million dollar chiller and you tell the customer OMG its got a leak, you need a new chiller. Yeah thats gonna fly. Not.

One more thing about this manual J stuff. I bet you a hundred bucks that you could have five manual J's done by five different companies and have five different results and every one of them would say they are right and the others are wrong. The old garbage in garbage out thingie. I mean really, theres like a 10% fudge factor built in to the damn thing so it isnt an exacting science now is it.

[.p.jm.]

You wanna talk 'difficult' ? I talked to a place today that makes custom one-off equipment that does things like :

Maintains high flow volume ( 500 GPM + ) process water at 0.5 C. Can you say 'on the hairy verge of becoming slush' ?

Maintains other process high volume chilled flow water within

0.2 F precision of setpoint. Does it LARGE ( is making a hundred tons of ice a day 'large' ? ), and in HOSTILE environments ( this ain't no little pansy-assed lab equipment living in a carefully controlled environment, this shit gets beat up by illegals all day every day ).

Does it all while maintaining FDA-level 'food grade clean' EVERYTHING.

I was impressed.

[The King]

Sounds very impressive. I was talking to a co worker the other day about the new Danfoss Turbocor magnetic bearing 75 ton compressors that hes starting up on a multi stack. He said he was going to plug his laptop into the compressor and watch it run. It can ramp up from zero to 35K rpm in less than five seconds and is quiet as a get out. Technology marches on and we are a long way form the old standing pilot V800 days. I cant even begin to imagine where we'll be at in another twenty years.

[.p.jm.]

You haven't been following Brobama :-)

HERE'S where we'll be

[The King]

134 was always going to be an interim refrigerant long before Obama came along because its a greenhouse gas. The Europeans are phasing out its use in autos beginning next year and banning it all together by 2017. Its old news. They wont be happy til were back to using ice.

[The King]

Ah retirement. lol

[TimR]

As far as I know, there is no consumption of refrigerant in any residential system.

If you're low, you have a leak. You fix the leak and refill. There is no periodic topping off of refrigerant that got used up, can't happen.

[The Daring Dufas]

I recover every ounce of refrigerant I can. If it's not contaminated, I'm going to reuse it. Somewhere I have a 124 lb R22 recovery cylinder. I take a little whiff and if it doesn't burn the hair out of my nose, a good set of filters and some Acid Away makes it usable.

TDD

[Alexander]

Why don't you just plastic bag it and sell it to your neighbors kids? The world has a scarcity of whoofers. If they whoof it, it won't damage the ozone and everybody wins. Won't have to buy carbon certs for it either.

[Daniel who wants to know]

OK just so you know, house AC systems have a hermetically sealed refrigerant circuit, that means the entire thing is all metal except for the Fusite where the electrical terminals enter the compressor. As such the system should NEVER require adding refrigerant EVER. If it needs any added then there is a leak somewhere plain and simple. Car systems however can sometimes require topping off every several years due to the refrigerant permeating through the rubber hoses.

And the term is refrigerant not "Freon" or coolant. Freon is DuPont's trade name for CFC and HCFC refrigerants manufactured by them This does include R22. However DuPont's trade name for HFC refrigerants such as R134a is Suva. Hence anyone you may hear referring to the refrigerant in their '94 or newer car as Freon is dead wrong. The same can be said for anyone with a new AC system using R410a

Coolant stays the same phase (solid, liquid, gas) as it carries heat around, refrigerant changes phases.

[The Daring Dufas]

I think they're called "huffers" and most of them get off on "toluene" which is in the paint that they huff. When the refrigerant in a system gets burned, it takes on a horrible searing odor that is what was used during WWI as a chemical weapon, phosgene gas, better known as mustard gas. If you start brazing connections on a refrigeration system that has not had the refrigerant completely removed, you will get a very unpleasant whiff of phosgene gas. Some people get off on huffing Freon but it can be very deadly. The HVAC supply housed have been selling special locking caps for refrigerant service valves that may help stop people from easily getting refrigerant from outdoor equipment.

TDD

[Stormin Mormon]

In the R-12 run up, the price went up for a few years. Eventually, the replacement blends come out on the market. And then the equipment starts to die off. As the equipment dies off, the demand goes down, and that affects the market and pricing. There is still R-12 equipment out there. I know, I service them.

[jamesgangnc]

asure the amps.

Yes, but extremely small leaks of a few ounces a year can be almost impossible to find and fix. There are a lot of systems with that problem. The only practical solution is to add a little refridgerant every couple years.