Workshop In An Alternate Homepower Environment

I am posting this subject in three different groups to hopefully get a good cross section of ideas. I apologize ahead of time if this offends anyone.

When one considers a workshop with metal and wood working capabilities, what tradeoffs have you made to have a working shop in an alternate homepower environment where every amp is precious?

Obviously hand nonpowered tools take on a special importance.

Cordless tools come to mind but which ones and what batteries?

When considerng stationary tools like drills, lathes, mills, saws, grinders, etc., which ones fit best in an environment where one is off grid?

Special operations like welding and using air compressors would seem to need consideration because of their unique requirements.

I would be interested in hearing how others have approached this situation and what implementations they have adopted.

Thanks for any suggestions or comments that you can offer.

TMT

Reply to
Too_Many_Tools
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cordless tools violate the 'every amp is precious' premise.

Charging batteries is *extremely* ineffcient.

PTO-driven ones. The 'drive' can come from nerly anything -- a water-wheel, a steam-engine, a tread-mill, etc. Even an electric motor, in extreme circumstance. :)

Welding -- gas, instead of electric arc.

Air compressor -- gasoline/deiesel engint, steam-powered.

Reply to
Robert Bonomi

Good point on the battery charging of cordless tools.

I was thinking that they might fit in where they could be run from the main bank of batteries themselves.

TMT

Reply to
Too_Many_Tools

I second what Robert Bonomi has said. What's wrong with good old fashioned human power? Such machinery was once very common. Take a look at some pictures of old machinery, and you will find an apprentice who is busy turning a flywheel all day long, and observing his master at work, thereby gaining a firsthand knoiwledge which no number of words can communicate. Nowadays, however, such flywheel turners tend to be very expensive. Therefore, I recommend that you build yourself a squirrelcage apparatus, and purchase a greyhound to run in it. Retired racing greyhounds are put to death if nobody wants them. I know a lady who has a retired racer, and he is a wonderful pet. A racer is happy when he is racing. This is of the very nature of a racer. So give a veteran a job, for god's sake, and build a squirrelcage power plant.

Mike Mandaville providing meaningful solutions for the workaday world

Reply to
MikeMandaville
  1. Go to a big power tool store.
  2. Buy a generator.
  3. Buy a whole bunch of gas.
  4. Start said generator
  5. Plug in tools
  6. Build.
Reply to
FriscoSoxFan

Only real solution for running tools at home is a generator. A propane generator might be the way to go if you already have auxilary heat that way. Typically the machines don't run terribly long at a stretch, except maybe a sander. My jointer and table saw only run a few minutes max.

If your pace is slow, hand tools will get it all done. Watched alone in the wilderness the other night. He did amazing time with cutting through several feet of spruce tree with a large western hand saw.

Alan

Reply to
arw01

ok things that you need a genny/huge inverter for (1) air compressor

1.1kw + , (2) arc/mig,tig welder 2.2kw + , some large routers and table saws . the list is endless . I at presant can run my 12speed pillar drill or chop saw (not both) from my 1 kw mod inverter . high batt voltage will help you start large motors so use in day light hours only (solar)
Reply to
samuelchamb

8kW (surges to 16) can handle most everything a home shop is likely to have. We have a few limitations - Hypertherm 600 suffers nuisance cut-outs above 45 Amps. It will also temporarily shut down if the compressor starts mid-cut. So I let the compressor tank fill, then shut the pump power off before starting the cut. For prolonged cutting at max output, I run the backup generator for boost. Lincoln SW TIG 175 can't be run at full output off our inverters, amp draw is too high. Could be solved by trading up to an inverter based unit if I didn't already have an engine driven substitute for the bigger jobs. Powermig 255 seems perfectly happy at full output.

Yuck! Perish the thought.

Cordless tools are great for jobs where the cord is a nuisance, but there' isn't any special need for them with home power. Careful though if you're using some of the modsquare (often called modsine) inverters, they can cook the chargers included with some cordless tools.

There aren't really any special considerations unless you're trying to get away with too-small inverter capacity. Keep in mind that if you're maxing out system capacity in the shop, it won't be available in the house at the same time. Having said that, I don't bother to tell my wife what I'm up to in the shop. If together we managed to exceed capacity, the inverters would trip off automatically. And that could happen more easily if for instance batteries were low, and you have surges due to large loads starting. The temporary voltage drop might be sensed, and cause a shutdown.

One thing I've done with all equipment purchases is to make sure they're easily returnable just in case they're not compatible with the inverters. VFDs could be an issue for instance. Although the only thing we've ever returned due to incompatibility was a bread maker that ran at double speed.

Wayne

Reply to
wmbjk

Booo! Hissss! Generators as a sole source are often the worst choice for home power. Their only advantage is low up-front cost. But in the long run they'll cost more, and are no fun to live with compared to solar/wind/inverter/battery. Home use tends to be relatively high energy but low power, while shop use tends to be high power but low energy. So adding shop power usually means increasing charging sources and batteries a little, but making the inverters substantially larger. And if one were to choose a generator well suited for shop use, it's likely to be way too big for backup on a properly sized home power setup.

Wayne

Reply to
wmbjk

Nonsense.

Wayne

Reply to
wmbjk

How many of these tools are going to operate at the same time? What do those amps add up to? With some extra margin, that is the demand you need to satisfy. It isn't the sum of all the tools, unless they will all be running at the same time.

Steve

Reply to
Steve Peterson

I think there are other considerations besides efficiency. This depends on your method of power generation, and how often you work. Cordless tools can be useful because you can charge them when you have peak power available from your source. The same is true for compressed air. If your home's battery bank is fully charged, you can divert your energy to building spare power for the shop in your cordless batteries, and building up compression in your air tank.

I also think that, depending on how you work, the loads may not be so bad. You most likely don't crank your saws constantly for hours on end. You use these things in bursts. You may be able schedule your work so that the extra load from these machines is manageable.

Reply to
MrSilly

Have you ever been in an Amish woodshop? The last time I was in one it had very many modern woodworking machines all driven by a jackshaft. There was a Deutz diesel engine powering the jackshaft. The amish farmers in PA where I grew up used the same diesel engine driving a jackshaft arrangement to pump water, compress air, run the refridgeration units for their bulk tanks and pump water. As a side note to this, they used an interesting pump down the well that used compressed air as power to pump the water up to a holding tank.

Shawn

Reply to
Shawn

Some people, unlike you, have a real life though.

Reply to
John P Bengi

clip

I worked in a shop with no electric and no "alternative power" tools... We had a forge with bellows, anvil, hardies, tongs, etc., out back for metal shaping and welding and a large selection of files, screw plates, hacksaws, etc. For woodworking there were axes, adzes, spoke shaves, draw knives, frame saws, panel saws, rasps, spring pole lathe, etc. Light came through the windows... It's doable... At the time there was a 10 year waiting list for our output.

John

Reply to
John Grossbohlin

FYI...I have had several emails expressing interest in this discussion.

Some of them are from viewers in Florida who commented that this topic is revelant to their situation after last year's storms. It would seem that many were without power for many weeks/months and were living subsistence energy wise for a long period of time while they were trying to rebuild their lives and property.

As one person said.." you never realize how much you rely on your power drill until you don't have the juice to run it".

TMT

Reply to
Too_Many_Tools

Any chance of hooking up to the grid for the special cases like the welder? It's not total independance, but you can really limit the amount of purchased electricity you use, and still get most of the benefits from generating your own power.

Reply to
Prometheus

That depends. For a typical windpower setup, you have an excess of power you can't store when you don't need it, then a shortage when you do. Even inefficient batteries can improve _overall_ efficiency

Reply to
Andy Dingley

Don't use the amps. I can't see any scenario where powering these tools (bigger than trivial) from an existing setup where "every amp is precious" can be viable. For lighting it's a different matter - simply upping the battery capacity might be enough.

And what's the shortage here ? Amps or coulombs ? Is the limit on power (ability to deliver it) or energy (stored capacity) ?

For convenience, go for a generator. You can use standard tools, the cost of doing this is low, the convenience is high. For an occasional use setup, or particularly for construction work, then this is almost always the best way.

For improved efficiency, then go to lineshafts and a separate internal combustion prime mover. This is likely to mean pre-WW2 vintage tools though, and slow-speed metalworking rather than our modern high-speed cutting. One of my neighbours has a 1900 house with its original (commercial light engineering) workshop - power comes from a 12hp gas engine (town gas, not gasoline) and it powers several lathes, mill and drill by lineshaft. All still operational too! This seems more viable for wood than for metal though.

With centralised lineshaft power, you're also geared up to use a water turbine. I can't see this working for wind power, but water is certainly viable. I've seen old UK cereal watermills which have had modern lathes or potter's wheels attached to them, and smithing has regularly done this to drive power hammers. The well-known Taunton press "Workshops" book has photos and drawings in it of "Ben's Mill" in Vermont, a water-powered mill with a 1900s iron water turbine, now supplemented by a tractor.

A timber yard I use is on an old farm. It has a number of electric machines, but the main rip saw is powered by a tractor and flat belt. There's now a dedicated stripped-down tractor, on a permanent brick footing.

A more modern approach than lineshafting is hydraulics. There are a number of US religious groups (Amish, AFAIR) where there are prohibitions on electric machinery. However a centralised diesel hydraulic power pack and individual hydraulic motors are acceptable. Not cheap though!

One of the simplest options is to not use powered tools at all. Why do you need a workshop? What are you trying to make ? If you're a green woodworker than you can use a shave horse and drawknife for much shaping work, a pole, treadle or great-wheel lathe for turning (powered either by the operator, or an assistant). Many such workers may also use these in conjunction with a Wood-mizer or similar large bandsaw, with its own petrol engine.

Reply to
Andy Dingley

  1. If you think that generators on their own make good sense for permanent off-grid workshops, then that's another subject that your sock puppet army doesn't know squat about.
  2. Any guy who'd post under the name "pizza girl" shouldn't be allowed around electricity or power tools, unless it's for electroshock therapy, or for having a frontal lobotomy hole drilled.
  3. Two of your identities, including the one you're using now, already claimed to have killfiled me, so any response from you to my posts is just more BS.

Wayne

Reply to
wmbjk

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