-------------------------------------------- "Lew Hodgett" wrote:
---------------------------------------------------- Somebody wrote:
--------------------------------------------------------- "Le>
----------------------------------------------------- If you chase the money you will find that most of the "lube shops" (Jiffy Lube, etc) are owned by the oil companies.
Pretty sure Shell owns Jiffy Lube.
These days, the last thing an oil company needs is bad press, especially for a $5 item.
Lew
Subaru dealer told my wife it was $173.80 (I just looked at it) to replace 4 spark plugs. No-sirree-Bob! Also, $42 for the light over the license plate and $92 for a cabin air filter, and numerous other "suggestions".
Some who doesn't own a set of wrenches is at a real disadvantage these days.
Bill
"Leon" wrote
That is the term for engines that are designed without clearance to avoid the pistons from smashing into the valves if the valve train skips time or stops while the crankshaft still keeps going for a short time.
This pistons come up and smash into the valves, usually breaking or bending valves, and/or smashing holes in pistons and other knarly stuff like that. You want to make sure you change the timing belt early on those engines, because if you wait til they break, you have an expensive, heavy paperweight.
If you want to keep them from being pulled out but still removeable, extend a portion of the back upwards so it will hit the horizontal stop in the frame when the drawer is all the way forward, then round over the bottom edge of the back, including the sides where they meet the back. Remove the drawer by lifting the front up until the extended back clears the stop.
I don't like them but they used to make - probably still do - little plastic rollers for drawers like this. A pair of rollers was attached to the frame at the front so the drawer sides rolled on them, another pair on the drawer at the top back corners so that as the drawer was extended and tipped, those rollers contacted the "kick" and rolled on it.
Actually the term is interference engines. The heads do not necessarily have any thing to do with valve to piston clearance unless the heads are milled beyond factory specs to increase compression. It is the lift of the cam that causes the piston to hit the valve should the timing belt/chain break or the timing gears strip, and the valve is in or near it's fully open position. Non interference engines do not have enough cam lift to push the valves far enough open to interfere with the piston as it approaches TDC whether the valve should be open or closed.
And FWIW before the days of RPM limiters it was not unusual during excessive RPMS for the valves to float, meaning the valve springs were not strong enough to push the valve shut fast enough after the cam lobe relieved pressure on the valve train. In these cases, and even with the timing belt/chain, and gears in proper order the pistons could come in contact with the pistons. In those cases it was more desirable that a push rod got bent vs a valve being bent. With OHC engines you don't have as many moving parts and valve/piston damage is more likely.
Since we were talking about the ease of removing oil filters, spark plugs, external parts, etc, I was a bit puzzled why an interference engine would present a problem with being able to replace anything on an engine.
I'm pretty sure there might have been some confusion as to what interference an interference engine actually presented to some one working on it. For the most part there is no difference in the engines as far as convenience to the person servicing or replacing parts inside the engine.
Now having said all of that, I retired from the automotive field some 20 years ago at 40. Up until then I never ever heard the term interference heads. That may have changed in the last 20 years. I at one time was the service sales manager for an Oldsmobile dealer. We had to be careful with terminology when taking with the factory reps. Ironically if you talked about the repair of paint on a vehicle with a factory rep the repair description never included the word paint. The repair involved color coating the affected panel. ;~)
Most Buick owners probably would not open the hood. As for them building a good car, my last one was a POS that I ended up giving away. I was a GM buyer for years, but GM pissed me off enough that I've not bought one since my '01 LeSabre and won't ever again.
The 36,000 mile warranty was up after 18 months of driving and it was down hill after that. The list of things that fell apart is very long.
If that is true, why do they get so much bad press? I've read enough about their shady tactics that I'd never go to one. Mind you, most is probably the local owner/manager and not corporate policy, but I don't trust any of the quick change chains. I have a local shop and I can stand right next tot he car as it is serviced.
Many people have no idea that their car becomes a time bomb at about
65,000 miles. Mostly is is the smaller 4 cylinder models, but you can check yours on the Gates Belt web site.If you buy a used car with more than 65k and an interference engine you may not know if the belt was changed or not. I've heard $300 to $500 for parts and labor to do a belt change and you may as well get the water pump done on some and save labor later.
...
Either folks or I or both have had one or more Buicks since '64 and nary a one has ever been a bad 'un...only bad experience I've ever had w/ GM was an '88 88 w/ a newly-introduced overdrive tranny design that went south early. Counting all the farm trucks and pickups going back to '28, I'd expect it would push 100 vehicles between personal and work use. I'm confirmed GM guy, meself from our experience. There's still a '58 C60 in use on the farm; I've been using it again today that's only had brakes and some body work (ensilage is _very_ corrosive and it had many, many years of use on feed-patrol)...current list includes '10 Enclave, '11 Lucerne, '98 and '99 PUs in the car, small truck varieties plus a half-dozen assorted single- and tandem-axle medium-duty trucks from '80s up.
I will agree with you thought's on the oil change places. Typically the turn over rate is high so they certainly not investing much technical training. So for the most part you have a guy that flipped burgers 6 months ago and the next time you go in he will be long gone.
YMMV
Having been in the automotive field most of my pro life I always did the repairs to our vehicles. Then I cut half my thumb off and during the healing period I took my wife's Acura to the local oil change place. I recall the guy yelling something about the drain plug being tight. I also noticed that the oil had already been drained. The next time I changed the oil the drain plug was indeed tight, and stripped. This guy cross threaded the plug and continued to tighten it until the crush washer flattened out. I had to rethread the pan and replace the plug.
Another trip I witnessed a sales guy come walking in quickly with the air filter to a lady's vehicle. He told her that the filter was dirty and needed to be replaced. She looked at and said that it did not look dirty to her. He pointed at the single dirty spot on the filter that was directly in line with the snorkel of the air cleaner. This was the old style round air filter. I was almost embarrassed for every one that worked there that they used those tactics to sell things that were not needed. The lady probably knew squat about cars but had more knowledge about what was dirty than the guy working there.
In case you hadn't considered the possibility, the CEO of Shell Oil doesn't personally change your filter. The droid on the line doesn't care.
One of these places didn't bother to check my antifreeze one Winter (I had just bought the car, which had previously been registered in TX). I specifically told them to make sure they checked it, even though it was on their list of "service points". Of course it froze the next night (its freezing point was +10F).
I have a Sonata Limited with the 2.0 liter turbo. I've noticed that a few other brands have a 2.0 liter turbo. I have to wonder if they are all out of the same engine plant.
Audi, Cadillac, Ford, Honda, Nissan all have a 2.0. Coincidence?
My last Sonata had a V-6. It did me well and I read it was developed with Chrysler and another car maker, maybe Mitsubishi.
--------------------------------------- Lew Hodgett wrote:
---------------------------------------------------- "Bill" wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------- Let's see, today's plugs are about $15-$20 each. Wires are also in the $15-$20 range.
IOW, a plug and a wire costs from $30-$40 per cyl.
Using an average, a plug/wire set costs about $35/cyl or $140 for a 4 cyl engine.
If the labor charge is only $10/ cyl or $40 for a 4 cyl.
Now we are up to $180 and nothing has been included for overhead and profit.
What about the electronics to test the newly installed plug/wire set?
Where does the DIY'r gain access to this test equipment?
I have been very fortunate finding good mechanics since coming to California.
Mechanics that will bring me back home while they work on the truck, then come back and pick me up when they are finished.
My present mechanic has a base business of working on hot rods and treats me like his long lost wayward step child.
His choice if he does the repair as long as he uses Toyota parts.
Sheet metal OTOH, is strictly a dealer item.
Like anything else, you pays your money and you takes your picks.
I use dealers as a source for renewal parts, body work and little else.
Today's use of onboard vehicle computers and high powered computerized test equipment, have made back yard car maintenance a thing of the past IMHO.
Lew
----------------------------------------------- "Ed Pawlowski" wrote:
--------------------------------------------------
4-5 years ago, the local NBC-TV investigative reporter did a piece one of the oil change quickies and uncovered a real mess.Got a mea culpa from the chain.
Followed up with another investigation about 2 years ago and guess what, back to the same old tricks.
Don't know what the outcome of this investigation was.
This was a chain that was attempting to increase their revenue stream by offering added services above and beyond the basic oil change.
Glad to see you found a local shop that works for you.
I have found a chain location that works for me.
As far as my comment about "bad press" is concerned, the oil companies have enough "bad press" problems with their base business' to have a headache with quick change operations which are in business to maintain a path to the retail market for their oil products.
What the quick change lube shops have done is establish a price level for their service.
A price level that has basically put the DIY'r out of business IMHO.
Lew
------------------------------------------------ Take a look at Europe.
Most European countries have laws on the books that penalize cars with engines above 2.0 liters.
Lew
Once I got into it, I learned how these little jobs can take a lot of time. $180.00 for changing plugs is certainly not out of line, given how much mechanics charge per hour.
"Leon" wrote
I missed the small difference in the post calling it interference heads. Still, I knew what the point was that was being made...
Interesting to note that many engines are interference engines, if the pistons were totally flat on the crown. Many pistons have two or more semi=circular depressions cast into their tops, so if a valve is open when the piston comes up, it does not smack the piston, because of the depression in the piston.
It certainly wouldn't have been a lot of money for my Eagle Vision TSi. What a PITA! The plug wires were threaded under the intake manifold. The book time was 3-1/2 hours. I got so I could do replace them in 45min[*]. Good profit item.
[*] After the third or fourth time, I found out why the kept blowing out. The gap was misprinted on the plate in the engine compartment. It specified .065" instead of .035". Opps. The car required MoPar wires, too. The after-market wires didn't fit.
There will be no similarities in these different brands of engines other than their size and number of cylinders. Just like in the 60,s Buick, Chevrolet, Pontiac, and Oldsmobile all had 350ci V8's they were all built with the same displacement but were all very unique.
Now in some instances these days the engines are the same. Audi being owned by VW, shares engines with the VW. You will actually find Audi branded parts under the hood of a VW.
Back in the 80's Chevrolet Isuzu and Honda had similar models. Isuzu built the LUV pick-up for Chevrolet but later Chevrolet built the Isuzu Rodeo for Isuzu. Strangely enough Isuzu had built for Honda, by Chevrolet. a Honda version of the Rodeo, I forget what Honda called it. Toyota used to build the Nova for Chevrolet in the 80's.
I believe you understood the terminology however I was not at all certain that the original poster mentioning it, did. Kinda reminds me of the TV shows where a guy is doing something under the hood and telling some one that he was putting water in a completely sealed battery. Or pouring coolant in the master cylinder. ;~) The term really did not fit the way the conversations was headed. I could have totally missed on that but that is the way I took it.
Correct, but it is not really a question of if the valve is open when the piston comes up, every other revolution of the crank shaft the valve is open when the piston comes up. And I know you probably know that but you might be surprised how very close the valve and piston come to each other. Some times you need a feeler gauge to measure the clearance on higher performance engines.
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