Reclaimed

On Saturday, April 22, 2017 at 8:28:37 AM UTC-5, dpb wrote:

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For me, a huge consideration is to deliver a warrantable product. For all t hat you mentioned, I stay away from the prepainted Hardie. I never put any up for >>exactly<< the reasons you state. Shingles are colored by batch, and one manufacturing run doesn't match another exactly. Wallpaper, the sa me. Batch runs of tile, paneling, brick, and on and on don't match one ano ther. So how could batches of Hardie? Since it is expensive, you only ord er what you need, and if you need to go back for more, your prefinished pie ces don't match.
Hardie flip/flopped on caulking joints on the prefinished product since the ir own caulk didn't match, so when the launched the product we were to caul k; several years later, no caulking on the prefinished stuff as per their i nstruction. So what gives? Same product, one is painted, one is not. Worse ,the ambiguity of their instructions make sure they warn the potential inst aller to be aware of the fact that on long runs there is enough thermal mov ement that the joints SHOULD be caulked.
https://www.jameshardie.com/d2w/installation/hardieplank-hz5-us-en.pdf
So what is the message? On houses with long runs, don't use the prefinishe d?
But it gets worse. Since no one reads the instructions, they don't flash E ACH butt joint as required. Every one should be flashed. I am the only in staller I have ever seen that does it though, even the largest "certified" installer here locally does not. So if you don't flash the butt joints and don't caulk them, you will get water behind your siding.
Prefinished siding from Hardie doesn't match their own recommendation of fi nish thickness on the siding. Somewhere in their literature they require a minimum protective finish (latex paint) of 1.5mm. They may have changed th at by now. However, a the time I measured the demo product with my microme ter the factory finish was less than half that. The Hardie rep assured me that it was fine since it was applied in perfect factory conditions to thei r specs and under their supervision. Bullshit. Too thin is too thin. The prefinished product is soft, scuffs and damages so easily that simply move ment of the material can cause scuffs, and scratches that require repair. And no paint, regardless of the accuracy of the original quality of color m atch will wear to the same color as a dissimilar product used by the factor y.
That being said, Hardie has its place for me. I have used a lot of it and had great results. As Leon said, primed is the ONLY way to go. Since it i s almost never stored correctly, primer provides a little protection agains t water and humidity absorption. I only buy from one local lumber yard tha t sells a ton of the stuff as it always fresh from the factory.
The pre-primed material holds paint very well, and one of the advantages of the preprimed is that you only need to put on a couple of coats and you ar e done. Properly painted, it looks great for years and years. Many compan ies like Sherwin Williams have modified some of their formulations to accom modate cement board products.
If I didn't have an airless, I would still wouldn't use prefinished. But a s I do with a lot of installs, I would prefinish myself. It is easy enough to lay out Hardie across sawhorses and roll it out. It takes no time at a ll to roll a couple of coats and they are are ready for use later in the da y or at least by the next day. I can put a helper on a 6 inch roller with a five of paint and he is a busy boy, but a helper can now pre-finish your siding on the ground. Scuffs and touch ups will match as you are using the exact finish you applied, and your nailer/installer can do his own touch u p before moving a ladder if it is more convenient.
Just thought I would put all that out there in case someone is thinking of Hardie or any other kind of cement board installation. It lasts well when p ut up correctly, but you must follow the instructions perfectly.
Robert
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On 04/22/2017 12:51 PM, snipped-for-privacy@aol.com wrote: ... [useful summary of caveats/processes elided solely for brevity]...

Thanks again, good background indeed. I'm surprised the Hardie board is so susceptible to moisture; you'd think given the material it would be much more impervious than seems to be and hence there wouldn't be such issues of causing paint failures.
BTW, was wondering if you tried to view the links I posted earlier below; nobody had commented at all so wondered if were not working or just elicited no response... :)
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On Saturday, April 22, 2017 at 1:27:05 PM UTC-5, dpb wrote:

Pour water on a scrap and stand back to be amazed...

Yup, worked fine! While I didn't reference it, your link was what prompted a post further up the line.
Robert
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On 04/22/2017 1:47 PM, snipped-for-privacy@aol.com wrote: ...

...
Ah, ok...
On "the project", it's that entry addition w/ the brick facing that is the prime focus; as is obvious (I think?) it's an old porch that dad just filled in when they redid. It has settled/pulled away from the house significantly and the brick, while has been on there since the early 50s when it was still just screen porch, just "doesn't look right" and there isn't enough footer that it has settled. Didn't help that during the time since the Dirty 30s and again in the 50s it had built up as much as 12-18" of higher level in the yard so that the house was sitting in a hole, in essence. I have drug the yard back down since but where there's a slightly observable larger gap at the south (LH side of the top of the screen door in the picture, that is now some 10-12 yr later >1/2". Surprisingly, the header is still level, the top of the frame appears to have moved south. Also, the brick facade at the NE corner had a gap between it and the wall above at that corner that I stuck a 3/8" ply into before just caulking it up for the winter. Turns out there were a zillion wasps behind there, apparently, and they've been finding their way out thru interior cracks all spring. :( Seem to have finally about got rid of them, though, the numbers are dwindling. Inside, the outer wall has also separated from the floor so there's a gap developing there of 1/8" or so...
That was taken about 6-7 yr after we came back so only that long on the paint; it didn't look too bad, then. I need to take a few more recent to show the present state.
Anyways, it seems to me two choices--
1) just rip out the infill sections while propping up the roof and fill in again squaring stuff up and hope with the regrading that it doesn't settle much more, or
2) tear off the whole entrance addition/porch and rebuild from scratch.
I wish I could enlarge it some as it's only 5'9" interior depth, but that means raising the roof line unless drop the floor level as interior ceiling height is only 7' 6" now and there's not enough length in the dining room to extend the table to accommodate the leaves at present w/o moving into the entry way so that's not really feasible. If raise the present roofline, only about 5-6" at most and leave clearance under the 2nd-story windows or get into the previously-mentioned problem of replacing the original leaded glass...
On the overall, it's just that I think the 8" siding pattern just also isn't as attractive as would be narrower so I'm seriously considering the reside for the whole thing while we're at it...
Anyways, again thanks for the input--helpful, it was...
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On 4/22/2017 1:27 PM, dpb wrote:

Hardie is pretty porous. So it is best to paint all sides. If moisture penetrates from the back side to the back side of the paint the paint will fail.

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On 04/22/2017 3:18 PM, Leon wrote: ...

...
Well, the latter is obvious; the former surprises me to learn--I had assumed given the base material/weight it would be dense-enough to be essentially impervious; hence its advantage. Lacking that, I see little at all to recommend it in lieu of alternatives.
--


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On 4/22/2017 5:04 PM, dpb wrote:

In hurricane country or where there is driving rain during storms the water can get back behind the panels and another reason that you wrap with a water barrier before hanging the paneling.
But Hardie does not rot nor is it food for insects.
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Concrete loves water, but H2O is the univeral solvent.
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On Sat, 22 Apr 2017 10:51:52 -0700 (PDT), " snipped-for-privacy@aol.com"

According to the Hardie site, the flashing can be just a piece of house wrap. They describe how to saw off the end of a roll so you have essentially a TP roll the right width for the joint. I've also seen aluminum widgets for this but even on Amazon, they want over $2 each for them. Yikes!

Paint shouldn't be that bad, these days. THe problem I see is fading, which shouldn't be a problem if just "running out". I've touched up interior wall with paint bough several years later. It looks like hell until it's dry than I couldn't see where I stopped. Tile (doesn't matter what type) is a PITA because you even the size differs by lots.

As I said earlier, I have to replace six or seven squares over the next few weeks. I'm considering the painted boards because it may be a while before I can get it all up and you folks have me worried about water. I'll still have to paint it to get it closer to the rest of the house (though the other Hardie sided sides can't be seen at the same time, at least by anyone other than the deer).
That said, I was looking at the boards at Lowes today. The aren't primed on the back so water could easily penetrate the fiber. Will water be a problem after it's hung, perhaps before the job is complete? I'll probably store it in the garage and let my truck sleep outside for a while.

What do you do with them after you've rolled them? THat's a lot of boards to lay around. I did it with the cedar I used on my VT house, so I could get the backs primed but it was a PITA.

I really appreciate your help. It's awesome and at exactly the right time for me. Thanks!
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On Sunday, April 23, 2017 at 6:28:19 PM UTC-5, snipped-for-privacy@notreal.com wrote:

That will do it. We store Hardie on the job with a large Harbor Freight ta rp over it if we are looking for rain. Cementitious board isn't a water ma gnet, so just being outside won't hurt it. Drizzle won't hurt it, a sprink le or two won't hurt it. Rain will ruin it as it can cause it to effloresc e. If you see this on ANY of the product, don't buy it from that yard:
https://goo.gl/wCKCfG
Regardless, with primer only you can paint with confidence if you have warm , dry weather for 30 days after you hang it when it has been wet. The same porosity that causes absorption allows it to dry out well. As a matter of fact, if I install during our more iffy weather season, I put it up, wait two week/ten days then paint knowing it could have caught some water at the material yard.

for use later in the day or at least by the next day. I can put a helper o n a 6 inch roller with a five of paint and he is a busy boy, but a helper c an now pre-finish your siding on the ground. Scuffs and touch ups will mat ch as you are using the exact finish you applied, and your nailer/installer can do his own touch up before moving a ladder if it is more convenient.

I can be, but I only prime for a day or two in advance. We set up and paint first thing in the morning, and the material is so porous that it is dry i n a couple of hours. Careful management of time and materials lets us pain t at the end of the day to get started first thing in the morning, then pai nt again that morning for early afternoon, then again at the end of the day . It sounds like a lot of movement, but not really. I have a lot of cheap sawhorses that I have just to keep material off the ground. I take the lo west paid guy I have to paint one side only (I don't prime the back) on the se, then transfer to screeds on a driveway, patio or deck. I "sticker" in between layers as soon as possible and store the painted product where I ca n. One laborer can easily keep up with two installers.
One last thought on the butt joints. I don't use flexible materials like v inyl, siding wrap, 30# felt, etc. I find the absolutely thinnest aluminum coil stock I can find to flash. Lowe's has some coil stock on occasion tha t is nearly as thin as heavy duty tin foil and it works great. If it is 8" stock, I cut my pieces 6" long and have my flashing pieces. (As a tip, if you use aluminum this thin you can cut it with a box cutter/utility knife a nd a speed square!) Whatever you use, make sure it is thin enough to allow the siding over the joint to rest easily on the joint/flashing. Here it is in 10":
https://www.lowes.com/pd/Amerimax-10-in-x-50-ft-Aluminum-Roll-Flashing/3010 399
It is bigger than you need, but even using that size your cost to flash is only .25 cents! (50 feet cut into 6" by 10" strips = 100 pcs. ) Get fanc y and buy a $5 can of Krylon spray in the approximate color of your siding and spray a stripe of paint down the middle of your flashing. That way whe n the siding shrinks a bit you won't see a sliver of unpainted metal from t ime to time at your butts. One can will probably do your whole project.
Stay away from galvanized product to flash. The cement in the board will s et up an electrolytic process that will cause rust and the above mentioned efflorescence.
To see how to do a proper butt joint, check this guy out. He (no pun inten ded...) nails it perfectly, except for the fact he uses galvanized steel. You can also see that it is stiff enough to mess up the piece that lays ove r the butt, too. Important to note that while me didn't use a nail and rel ied on friction to hold the metal in place, the next course wound up with a nail in the flashing to make sure it stayed in place.

My pleasure. This thread reminds me when this group was mostly about woodw orking. I was kind of feeling your possible pain when I saw the size of yo ur project. That's simply too big to have any problems.
I do hope you post some "work in progress" pics, no matter what siding you use.
Robert
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On Mon, 24 Apr 2017 22:55:22 -0700 (PDT), " snipped-for-privacy@aol.com"

Rain is a given this time of year. When you say that rain will ruin it, do you mean if it's submerged or if it just gets (good and) wet? If it's hanging on the wall, will a good rain ruin it?

30 days is a rather long dry spell to arrange. ;-)

It would be nice to have a helper but this is a solo project.

That's sorta what I was thinking. I had some step flashing from moons ago but I'm pretty sure I pitched it in the last move.

Another excellent idea. The $1 per piece flashing looked to be a piece of step flashing with maybe an 1/8" right angle bend in one end. The flashing was hung on the edge on the upper board and held on by the lower. Nice idea but $1 a piece?

Yeah. Any sort of steel seems to be a bad idea. Aluminum isn't that expensive. I intend to use stainless nails, so a few bucks for aluminum flashing seems like cheap insurance.

Am I missing a link?

It's not that big. I've done that much cedar, though I was a few years younger. ;-)

Sure, I'll try to remember.
--Keith
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On Wednesday, April 26, 2017 at 8:00:16 PM UTC-5, snipped-for-privacy@notreal.com wrote:

No. If it is hung on the wall with rain draining off it, you can paint it after about 10 days of drying if completely soaked. But if just a good spri nkle, usually when it looks dry it is ready to go.
I was trying to hit the point that the lumberyards/suppliers stack it horiz ontally in open weather most of the time, and when rained on repeatedly, it can sustain irreparable damage.

arm, dry weather for 30 days after you hang it when it has been wet. The s ame porosity that causes absorption allows it to dry out well. As a matter of fact, if I install during our more iffy weather season, I put it up, wa it two week/ten days then paint knowing it could have caught some water at the material yard.

Depending on the time of year, here, too.

Then if that was me, I would separate the tasks depending on the availabili ty of room. I would paint as much as possible as the cleanup time required (dictated on the material painted)for the rollers, brushes, paint stirrer (mine is always on a drill), etc., takes much longer than simply pulling in the compressor and rolling up the cords at the end if the day. I wouldn't want to clean paint equipment more than twice a day.
If you are hanging the long pieces by yourself, make a "J" shaped hanger to attach to the farthest stud you siding will reach to hold the other side o f the material until you work your way to it. If you make it right, you ca n screw it to the stud at the joint, then when you are about 4' away, you c an swivel it on the screw to swing it out of your way before you nail.

tended...) nails it perfectly, except for the fact he uses galvanized steel . You can also see that it is stiff enough to mess up the piece that lays over the butt, too. Important to note that while me didn't use a nail and relied on friction to hold the metal in place, the next course wound up wit h a nail in the flashing to make sure it stayed in place.

Ooops....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jcw-9SfSxzo&t
5s
I still can't believe he uses galvanized metal, for all the reasons describ ed above. Technique, great. Materials used, fail.

I do a lot of physical labor during my normal course of work from time to t ime, and my goodness... what a difference 40 years makes on the old frame.

Hope so! A smaller amount of siding than your project, say an entryway or storage room is a doable project for some handy guys and DIY folks. Picture s of your work might be worth a thousand explanations, even if there are fe w replies.
Robert
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On Thu, 27 Apr 2017 16:35:08 -0700 (PDT), " snipped-for-privacy@aol.com"

OK, that makes sense.

Gotcha. Even HD and Lowes store it inside here. I'll probably end up buying it at HD. It seems they have Festool pricing, so there isn't much sense in going out of the way.

OK. You're suggesting that I paint as much as possible to do in a day (given space), then hang the next? Repeat...
            -OR-'
Paint it all - as many days as needed, then hang?
Either way, I'm worried about the stuff sticking together. I know you said to sticker it but the stuff is like noodles to that's a *lot* of stickers.

I've already bought a set of Gecko gauges.
<(Amazon.com product link shortened)93341992&sr=sr-1&keywords=gecko+gauge>

He also says to caulk the joint. The failed boards are done just like that (except no flashing) but the caulk failed long ago. Hardie recommends against caulk too. With the flashing behind it, is it needed?
The idea of the construction glue, or whatever it was, holding the bottom of the board is a keeper, too. That's another reason I'm replacing mine. The bottoms are loose, particularly near the joints. The boards are cracked around the nails. This way, there's no need for nails below the lap.
It was interesting to note that the "butt" joints weren't butted up against each other. Makes sense, given that the stuff absorbs water. It also points out how smart your spray can idea is, too. Spray paint can be mixed to match any color can paint can. I have no idea what it costs, though.

Well, none of us are getting younger but I think I can still climb a ladder. SWMBO freaked when I threatened to paint the other sides (three stories in some places).

This is a pretty simple installation. It's at most 16' high, and much of it half that. It's one side and no gables.
I'll make a point of taking pictures. Thanks again for all you help (I'm sure I'll be back for more). The least I can do is take a few pictures. ;-) Just gotta find a place for them.
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On Thursday, April 27, 2017 at 8:51:17 PM UTC-5, snipped-for-privacy@notreal.com wrote:

The whole project is too much to paint and sticker. Even with a herd of sa w horses, I don't do that. I just try to anticipate how much I can put up in a day. Paint at the end of the day, let it dry for several hours overni ght, then the batch is ready to go first thing in the morning. Then each d ay of installation you can anticipate how much you will need for the follow ing day and knock off the installation an hour early, pack the installation tools up, paint, clean your rollers, and you are done, ready for the next day.
Switching tasks is a time killer.

Nice. Pretty high tech!

If you have a pretty close joint, planks in contact about half of the expos ed facing after butting, then probably not.
But, welcome to the great debate. As noted earlier, Hardie has flip/floppe d on this more than once. This latest installation pdf
http://www.jameshardiepros.com/JamesHardiePros/techdocs/d2w/installation/ha rdieplank-hz10-us-en.pdf
that is the newest on the "pro" site, is from May 2016. Less than a year o ld. It clearly shows on their little graphic the word "caulking" used in t he install details, the caveat in parenthesis is that you don't use caulkin g on ColorPlus (prefinished) product. The same installation bulletin also details on page 3 what kind of caulk to use, with a warning of application for one brand. A call to Hardie is not that helpful; they advise to caulk a s needed, and now they advise on their installation differently in differen t climate zones.
Note too in that publication, that different from earlier versions that it does NOT recommend a space at the joints for caulking, but uses the chicken shit ambiguity of "install planks in moderate contact at butt joints". Wha t is moderate contact?
Over the years, they have gone from requiring an 1/8" between the joints fo r caulking to as "as needed" policy. They use further weasel language to r elieve themselves of some of the "caulk/no caulk" problem by warning to fol low local building codes and lcally acceptable installation procedures. Th at way if the siding leaks they are covered at least in some instances. If your local ordinance or FHA/VA requires caulking and you don't, then Hardie voids that section of your warranty. If you caulk and it isn't required ( merely suggested) and caulk fails, it is on the installer/you.
Over the years, with no clear guidance and no specification for the caulkin g, People used painter's caulks, silicone caulks, etc., all completely wron g for this application. Also, without adequate specification for the storag e of this material at the yard, we go this stuff wet and it shrank a lot. Compounding that, latex materials don't stick well to wet products so altho ugh it looked good, the caulk didn't stick.
I am back to what I used to do and didn't have any failures. I have had to renail a couple of planks on the first job I did, but that is because I di dn't understand how crucial it was to follow the nailing instructions. Cha nging my pneumatic nailer to a roofing nailer (since I always blind nail), fixed the spalling problem. What I do different now is to add the aluminum strip as flashing with a colored stripe down the middle, and add a small d ollop, say marble size) of glue at the joints. I have a box of stainless n ails that I used on rare occasion on a facing where a wall dips or bulges a nd the planking won't draw up tight.
So at the butts, I put up my metal flashing with the "next nearest color st ripe" on it, put a small dollop of adhesive just OUTSIDE the flashing (far enough away that the glue won't touch the flashing when compressed), put up the siding (factory to factory edge only) until the touch, then nail it. I f it is closed, I don't caulk. If it isn't, I will apply a good quality sol vent based elastomeric caulk.

That isn't a Hardie detail, but an installer detail. Half the size of a Her shey's kiss on each side is all you need, and a tube of PL400 will last for a few days. CHEAP insurance. While all the Hardie moves on the walls aft er installation, the joints are the weak points. And if you spall the back side accidentally, most of the time you don't know, and the damage manifest s itself in the way you are seeing.

Krylon makes a rainbow of colors these days, so remember that IF the flashi ng in your joint is seen, it will be about 1/8" at most. My experience is that joints of well painted material don't open more than that. No need to have specially made paint for a sliver of aluminum that is back in the sha dows with no immediately adjacent color to match with little light to get t o it except morning and evening when the sun is more horizontal. If it is c lose, no one will see it. If it isn't, buy your paint early, cut the flash ing and slather a paintbrush size stripe on the pieces and you have an exac t match.
Robert
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wrote:

??
Hardie Plank is already primed.
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wrote:

What does the cost of a painter have to do with the value of my time?
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On Sat, 22 Apr 2017 12:54:11 -0400, snipped-for-privacy@notreal.com wrote:

If you are paining it yourself it sets a value on your time, if you hire a painter it is more obvious.
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wrote:

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wrote:

OK, but it's really the other way around. I have a price on my time and if the painter is cheaper, it makes sense to use the painter. In this case, it's a small job (6-7 squares 1 to 1-1/2 stories) and I doubt any painter would bother.
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On 04/21/2017 1:44 AM, snipped-for-privacy@aol.com wrote: ...

Thx again, Robert. I guess you're basically saying other than the factory-primed products or to go back to steel, there really isn't as durable a prefinished material as the advertising would have you believe I think is what I'm reading between the lines...which isn't that surprising methinks.
The original profile is #106 in the standard mill books (eastern and western) as shown at <www.nelma.org/wp-content/uploads/106_drop_siding.pdf> excepting where they now show from 4" up, it was 3-1/8". The narrower is more pieces/work but really has the "old timey" look that just isn't captured with the wider profiles (at least imo which is the one that counts :) ). I may end up with 4" out of accommodation with cost, but I really don't want to get wider than that--I never liked the 8" on the steel siding dad put on from the beginning, but wasn't my call, then, either! :)
<https://goo.gl/LxK9fo
Some about the house a classmate took when had a HS reunion evening out as well as some of the barn refurb/reroof and a few during an exceptionally good haying season for good measure...not sure if I did the sharing thingie right or not...it worked for me but not sure it's public for other users...
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