Question about shellac solvent

[Andy Dingley]

I thought you didn't have methylated spirits in the USA ?

Anyway, UK (and AFAIK, everywhere) methylated spirits is a mixture of four things - ethanol, methanol (about 1/3rd), purple dye and pyridine (a stenching agent).

Purple dye will colour blonde shellac, but it's not too hard to find undyed meths..

Pyridine stinks. I know methanol is a hazard, but it's actually the pyridine that I find the most offensive part of working with meths. Supposedly there have been pyridine-free meths blends, but AFAIK they're not available in the UK at all these days. Given the toxicity of meths and the risk of not having it "marked" in such a way, then I can believe this. OTOH, pure methanol is easily available unstenched.

When I can get hold of it (friends in the lab trade) I use pure lab-grade ethanol. This is safer because of not having the methanol in it, and it's much more pleasant to use as there's no pyridine. However the paperwork to get it is frightening, and the suppliers don't regard wood finishing as a suitable cause for supplying it.

[Charlie Self]

Andy Dingley notes:

Jeez. I just buy whatever the paint store has in stock. If it came down to it, I could drive a few miles--Franklin, one county over is supposed to be one of the centers of the bootleg booze production in the South. Pick up some second run distilled stuff at nearly 200 proof. That should do 'er.

Charlie Self "He has all the virtues I dislike and none of the vices I admire." Sir Winston Churchill

[RKG]

Thanks for all the comments. Comments in general seemed to think it would work fine so I used it with shellac flakes on a small cabinet I built for my grandson, it works fine. I don't spray and as with any of the solvents we use you take precautions.

Having worked in nuclear plants for 27 years and continually taking safety courses, when I started woodworking after retiring my first purchases included an air cleaner that hangs from the ceiling and gets turned on whenever I am working in the shop, a dust collector and a dust respirator. Once I started doing finishing I got a chemical respirator and the cartridges get changed regularly.

Since my 25' x 25' shop is in the basement I'll spend the extra and use the denatured alcohol LV sells in the winter when I can't really vent the shop outside like I do in the warmer weather.

Rick

[Silvan]

My distant relations have NO idea what you're talking about.

[Andy Dingley]

We have _huge_ taxes on retail drinkable alcohol. As a result, "non-drinking" alcohol is very difficult to get hold of.

We also have practically no moonshine distilling. If you're so inclined, you're more likely to be making strong cider or beer.

[Eddie Munster]

Food grade is good.

[George]

The Canadian use of "methyl hydrate" was the original source of discussion. By name it would seem it really is wood alcohol,

which as we know is not the same a methylated (denatured) spirits US doesn't add the dye to our mix, but the residue of some of the dehydrating agents can be tough on you, even in relatively small quantities.

[fredfighter]

pyridine

My mistake, I thought methylated spritis was a synomym for methanol. It may no longer be available but from your description I daresay methylated spritis may be very similar to what we used to use for mimeograph copies. Though from what I remember of the odor it did not have pyridine in it.

[Eddie Munster]

I think the wood alcohol is poisonous and the grain alcohol is the drinky kind. I think I have seen it for sale in booze stores?

Where does ethanol fit in?

[Andy Dingley]

I've never seen "Everclear" or equivalent in the UK. I've never even seen it in the USA - the last few times I've visited I've been on quick trips in uptown urban areas, not prowling the bodegas.

If I could find Everclear locally I'd be using it, just for the convenience - even with the taxes on it.

[Andy Dingley]

Ethanol, good stuff, sometimes called "grain alcohol".

Methanol, bad stuff, sometimes called "wood alcohol".

[Juergen Hannappel]

Wood alcohol is methanol.

Thats the stuff in beer and wine. It would be the best solvent, because it's not so very poisonous (after all it you drink...), but because you can drink it it's loaded with a very heavy tax that makes it very expensive if bought without any nasty stuff mixed in.

BTW: glycerine is also an alcohol..

[Charlie Self]

Silvan responds:

Just don't buy that bridge they keep trying to sell you.

Charlie Self "He has all the virtues I dislike and none of the vices I admire." Sir Winston Churchill

[Charlie Self]

Well, nuts to that. I don't drink these days, but back in my boozing days, I can recall hitting some white lightning that really lived up to its name. By the 4th ounce or so, you thought you'd been hit by lightning. If you took another ounce, you woke up wishing you would BE hit by lightning.

Charlie Self "He has all the virtues I dislike and none of the vices I admire." Sir Winston Churchill

[Charlie Self]

Andy Dingley responds:

Next time you hit Richmond or some other semi-Southern city, check out the local ABC store. They'll have Everclear, though possibly not by that name.

Nasty stuff to drink by itself, though, unless you're already ripped. IIRC, most of it goes into punch bowls for the unwary, often at church picnics.

Charlie Self "He has all the virtues I dislike and none of the vices I admire." Sir Winston Churchill

[Roy Smith]

There are many kinds of alcohol. From a chemical point of view, the word "alcohol" describes a large class of chemical compounds containing an OH group connected to a carbon atom. The three most common alcohols most lay people hear about are methanol, ethanol, and isopropanol.

What is commonly called "wood alchol" is methanol, and yes it is poisonous, even in very small amounts.

Grain alcohol is ethanol. In large quantities, it too is poisonous, as a few unfortunate college kids find out every year; chug a quart of whisky and you'll probably be dead before the night is out.

Absolute ethanol (not to be confused with the Absolut brand of vodka) is just very pure ethanol. This has no water in it (unlike vodka, which is more or less half water, depending on the proof). It is generally only available by special license to industrial customers.

There are also other extremely pure grades of ethanol (reagent grade, spectroscopic grade, etc) which are increasingly more pure, and increasingly more expensive.

Denatured Alcohol is absolute ethanol with a little methanol added to it, to intentionally make it unfit to drink. Since you can't drink it, the government isn't interested in taxing or controlling it, and it's much more widely available than absolute. For most uses as an industrial solvent (such as for disolving shelac), the little bit of methanol doesn't really matter. If memory serves, the addition of the methanol also aids in the removal of the last bits of water during the distilation process.

What's sold in most drugstores as "rubbing alcohol" is isopropanol (typically 70%, the rest is water). To the best of my knowlege, it's not toxic, at least in small quantities. The reason it's sold in drug stores is because it evaporates fast, so it makes a great cooling rubdown.

[Doug Miller]

Yes, it is toxic, even in small quantities. In fact, in rats at least, it's

*more* toxic than methanol. The oral LD-50 (lethal dose to 50% of test subjects) in rats is 5040mg/kg for isopropyl alchohol, and 5628 for methanol. I believe that in humans it's not as hazardous as methanol is, but it certainly is not something you want to ingest.

-- Regards, Doug Miller (alphageek-at-milmac-dot-com)

Get a copy of my NEW AND IMPROVED TrollFilter for NewsProxy/Nfilter by sending email to autoresponder at filterinfo-at-milmac-dot-com You must use your REAL email address to get a response.

[George]

Or Vodka....

Check the LD50, and it's not so benign either, though I have booked 0.36 that was still more or less upright.

95% is as good as it gets with ethanol, because the 95/5 azeotrope prevents further distillation. Anything beyond has to be dried another way, some of which are nastier than the methanol.

[Xane T.]

It's not always methanol. The bottle of Ace brand denatured alcohol is denatured with both methanol and MEK, it's more poisonous than it needs to be. I think the Kleen Strip brand is the one that has only methanol to denature it.

Isopropyl rubbing alcohol can also come in 91% pure in the drugstore, this is what I always buy since it's better for sterilizing things than 70% is, plus I use it to keep the bubbles out of bar top epoxy varnish. I've heard you can use isopropyl for shellac but it dries slower and stays gummier longer (thus allowing more dust to settle on it). Ethyl alcohol is also sold as 'rubbing alcohol', which I believe is also a form of denatured ethanol. The label I read at CVS last night had all sorts of odd ingredients in it other than ethyl alcohol, in fact it looked /more/ poisonous than woodworking denatured stuff.

[rcook5]

Here in the US you can just pick up some Everclear at the liquor store. Expensive as a solvent for shellac, but it gives great results.

--RC

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