PSA: Harbor Freight Digital Caliper $16

Hello again AL,

As I said, it is possible to create a fixture to do what you want (on the jointer at least) but the task is not easy and accurate results aren't going to come cheap.

Not bad. So, as you can see already, the fixturing (the angle plate in this case) will be the most expensive element of your design. For the most part, this is always true. The first logical question involves choosing the "right size" for your angle plate. Since the indicators will be attached to the sides, they are mounted in fixed locations which are determined by the size of the angle plate. One size won't fit all jointers. So, several models would be needed. It's not a very attractive solution for someone with more than one jointer (or someone planning to upgrade to a larger model someday).

It's also a "one function" solution. It is designed for jointers only (just imagine trying to calibrate this for planers). Expensive, single function products are not a very attractive to prospective customers.

Unfortunately, this doesn't guarantee that the two indicators provide the same measurements. If you are sure that your outfeed table is sufficiently flat then this works. If you are not sure, then it's equivalent to calibrating your instrument using an unknown standard. A good calibration instrument needs to be immune to imperfections in the machinery. It needs to work for everyone who follows the instructions properly. If good alignment is possible, then the instrument should facilitate it. If good alignment is not possible, then the instrument should not fool you into thinking you have good alignment.

Just give it a try and let us know how you make out. It's not a matter of the effect that tilt will have on one indicator's ability to provide absolute linear measurements. Remember, you're trying to get two indicators to read the same thing when they are measuring the same thing. Exaggerate the possibilities in your mind or just give it a try and see what happens. If the difference in readings is less than

0.001", can you be sure that the difference in the objects being measured is less than 0.001"? You can always check the accuracy of your results using the single indicator setup (which is, in fact, quite immune to tilt so long as you use a spherical indicator point).

I also think you're going to have a lot of difficulty ensuring that the dial indicators are aligned (have the same tilt).

The fixturing is definitely rigid enough and quite heavy (though not very adjustable). While two indicators may respond differently to different measurement pressures you probably don't have to worry about this too much.

Actually, the stylus points make a huge difference - especially if you plan to use flat rather than spherical indicator points (a very common mistake). Imagine the effects of indicator tilt when using a flat stylus. If there is any tilt in either direction, then the reading will vary significantly depending on where the knife contacts the surface of the stylus. How will you determine if a difference in readings is the result of misalignment or tilt related positioning of the knife edge? Can you really ensure that the indicator point touches the knife in the same spot that it contacted the table? Try it and let us know how it works out. You can always use the single indicator solution (with spherical indicator point) to check the accuracy of the results.

Yes, I know what you are talking about. It's called "bi-lateral symmetry". You are assuming that there is an orientation of the blade such that every point on one side of a centerline has a corresponding point on the other side. You can probably find blades like this. You might even own some. But, there is no guarantee that all blades will exhibit bi-lateral symmetry.

It could still be shaped like a cup (bi-lateral) but not be symmetrical. Don't make the mistake of thinking that some small sample of blades (yours for example) are representative of all blades.

Sure, I understand. And, I'm sure you understand why it's important for me to defend the hard earned reputation of my products against untested ideas which violate basic Metrological principles.

Ed Bennett snipped-for-privacy@ts-aligner.com

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Reply to
Ed Bennett
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Reply to
bridger

The angle plates I'm considering are in the $5 to $10 range--imported to match my imported indicators. I realize the disk shaped points require the indicators to be perpendicular. I just don't think it will be that hard to do. But I will experiment with both types of points.

Reply to
AL

You would need to check the T slot or table edge/side one time, not every time. You can also check the vise one time. On my mill, 2 degrees is enough to access the T slot. I'm not trying to access the very bottom of it.

Reply to
AL

Yes, clamping or gluing is the way to go. Drilling the caliper arms is difficult.

For around double the cost, you can get horizontal and vertical dro's which look like Harbor Freight's digital calipers without the arms, but with mounting holes on both sides.

Here is an example of a vertical one:

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here is an example of a horizontal one:

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can find better prices if you look for it.

They also make very long ones, so you could put one on your table saw fence if you wanted to.

Some dro's and most digital calipers have serial port connectors (intended for statistical process control) so you could mount one inside your table saw trunnion and put a separate display somewhere else (for example on the overhead guard if you have one). You could use it to display the height of the blade.

You could also have one display the angle of blade, but that is a bit tricky.

Reply to
AL

I just had another idea. If using an end mill holder, forget the spindle lock, using the neutral lever, and turning the spindle by handle. Leave the spindle in gear so that the weight of the gears, belts and motor keeps it in place. Mount the gauge but leave the setscrew loose. When the gauge is square, tighten the setscrew.

Reply to
AL
2 degrees isn't even enough to clear the indicator spindle, let alone the body or the mounting lug. You'll be closer to 30 degrees by time you clear everything. So, you're saying that you are going to have a calibrated gagging surface on each machine. You are also going to have a dedicated setting fixture for each machine. Obviously, you are going to have to have calibration fixtures to calibrate those calibration surfaces and, as you seem to believe the dual indicator set up is the way to go, you are going to need a calibration device to calibrate the calibration device that you are going to use to calibrate your calibration surfaces. Of course, there is no telling if the original calibration device is correct. Might be close enough in home shop where you can be reasonably sure of everything that goes on and the accuracy requirements of the work are not that close but in a commercial shop, forget it. To get back to your original thought. Why would a commercial shop sell you an alignment device that is inherently less accurate, by design, than the one they used when making the device? Ever heard the old saying "anything that can go wrong, will"? Only make things as complicated as they need to be to get the job done. Eliminate variables as much as possible.
Reply to
CW

Yup! It's deja vu all over again!

Reply to
Ed Bennett

:)

Reply to
CW

I've purchased a number of these cheap angle plates for fixturing in the shop. They are pretty handy but don't expect them to be very accurate. Don't be surprised if they rock on a flat surface.

The proper choice of indicator point is Metrology kindergarden. A flat stylus should only be used on a round surface. A round stylus should only be used on a flat surface. A knife edge is basically a flat surface (flat in one dimension anyway). To obtain reliable and repeatable results, a round stylus is called for.

"Flat contact points have an important role but can be a serious cause of error when improperly used" "Fundamentals of Dimensional Metrology" by Ted Busch, 2nd Edition p.256, (c) 1989 Delmar Publishers Inc.

This is a great book by the way. A "must read" for anyone interested in designing their own alignment and measurement fixturing. It can still be found on Amazon for about $3.00. The latest edition will set you back about $85.

Ed Bennett snipped-for-privacy@ts-aligner.com

Reply to
Ed Bennett

The indicators are hanging below the spindle. At 90 degrees it is already clear of the spindle. At 88 degrees, it is clear of the spindle and can touch the top of the T slot. No dedicated setting fixture or calibrated gauging surface required. Just check (once) if the the T slot or surface table if flat and parallel to the axis of travel.

Reply to
AL

Did I miss something?

Reply to
AL

The gages sold by Oneway and Powermatic use flat disk shaped points. I will be trying several different shapes to see what works best. The rules be d*mned. I also have the Fundamentals of Dimensional Metrology and think it is very good.

Reply to
AL

Regarding the angle plates, the cheap ones I currently use don't rock on my surface plate. I'm not sure if they are exactly perpendicular, but I don't need them to be.

Reply to
AL

Absolutely unbelievable! I would never imagine that you can get these readouts for this kind of money. I would certainly get the readouts that are made for mounting on a tool for the $35 or so that they are asking for them. You can jog the number up or down slightly to bring it into the correct reading.

By the way, where can I get the specs on the electrical interface? I called Harbor Freight on that, but even though they said they would get back to me, I don't think they will be able to find the info. Where would I look? The caliper is a Cen-tech. Tried to look them up with little success. If anyone knows who makes the readout or who in this country might know what the interface is, let me know.

Reply to
Eric Anderson

A few months ago I found a web page that described the interface. I just looked but couldn't find it. Try searching rec.crafts.metalworking on groups.google.com.

A year ago, the vertical dro's were going for $50. Now they are $35. I suspect in a few years they will be $5 and people will be installing them on their toilet seats.

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Reply to
AL

I found it:

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Reply to
AL

If you need a cable, have a look at this one:

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Reply to
AL

Great Al. Thanks. A 3 axis display is shown here also. A little pricey for my purposes. I am going to look for just a single external display. So far I see that there are kits to make your own. Guess that is an option. Really great source material. Thanks again.

Reply to
Eric Anderson

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