OT bad experience today

[Greg]

Truer words were never spoken. Bad dogs are caused by bad breeders ans bad owners.

[Searcher]

First of all I do not live in a suburban setting, second I maintain a legally recieved license to carry a firearm. If this (or any other animal for that matter) was an imediate threat to myself or my child it would have been shot post haste. As far as a gun control issue, I have NO problem controlling my weapon. I believe that Pittbulls are notoriously used as weapons against police and other persons. They have a deep seated instinct to kill, and this instinct can be buried within the dogs mind but never removed.

How can I as a parent allow my child to play in his own yard with a dangerous animal running loose? I can't, so why should I keep my child locked up in a house while this dog runs loose? Dig deeper into the internet and you will find that "faithfull" dogs have turned on thier owners in the middle of the night for no apparent reason. By the way I am a dog owner, a pure bred Yellow lab, so this is not about dogs. It is about the safety of my child.

Searcher1

[Doug Miller]

Up to a point, yes. The fact still remains that some breeds are much more easily made into bad dogs than others. You'd have to work at it a *lot* harder to make an attack dog out of a golden retriever, than out of a pit bull.

-- Regards, Doug Miller (alphageek-at-milmac-dot-com)

Get a copy of my NEW AND IMPROVED TrollFilter for NewsProxy/Nfilter by sending email to autoresponder at filterinfo-at-milmac-dot-com You must use your REAL email address to get a response.

[Peter De Smidt]

We've been dog owners for a good number of years. Our first dogs were Bernese Mountain Dogs, both of whom have sadly passed away, and now we have a 14 month old Leonberger name Murphy. Our dogs go on three long walks a day, at least one of which is usually a woods ramble or an adventure to a dog park. Unfortunately we don't go to dog parks anymore since our dogs have been attacked too many times, and I've gotten bitten pulling other people's dogs off of mine. Our dogs have been attacked by golden retrievers and akitas, but the biggest offenders have been german shepherds, rottweilers and pit bulls.

A pit bull made the scariest attack. He charged Murphy from 100 yards away and lunged for his throat. Luckily, the pit was wearing a muzzle. Nonetheless, he keep lunging and doing what he could to get at Murphy. The raging noises the pit bull made were unbelievable. During the roughly 5 minutes that it took the owners to get a hold of their dog, they spent the first minutes just watching, the muzzle almost slipped off. If that had happened, Murphy would be dead, and then either I or the pit bull would also have been no more. I could grab Murphy, but that just made him a stationary target.

People with aggressive dogs should never put that dog in a situation where he can harm anyone or any dog, and people who have dogs that were historically bred for fighting have to be very careful even if their dog hasn't shown any aggression. There are a great number of incidents were a supposedly perfectly behaved pit bull, akita, mastiff... went berserk and hurt or killed something. I'm not saying that people shouldn't own these breeds, but if they do they should very pro-active dog owners with significant experience in dog training, and they should be responsible for what their dog does. In my experience, this is often not the case.

-Peter De Smidt

[Dave Mundt]

*snip*

I have to take some issue with this, as it is exactly like saying all African-Americans are shiftless, promiscuous drug dealers. Here is a fairly good look at the breed and its characteristics

The bottom line is that with pit bulls, as well as every other breed of dog, the behavior of the dog is directly related to the training given it by the owner. If the owner trains it to promote its aggressive tendencies, then, it will be aggressive. If it is trained to attack...it will attack. On the other hand, if the owner has treated the dog with love and promoted its friendlier side, then it will not endanger any human. Now...as the above points out, they WERE bred for fighting, whichs means that they WILL have a tendency (hard to overcome) to fight with other DOGS. However, again, with proper training, it is possible to overcome this, so the pit bull will not automatically attack on sight...but...it does require training. Of course, I do realise that dogs, being living creatures, come in QUITE a range of personalities, so, I am sure there are some Pit Bulls that are so filled with aggression that they cannot be brought to heel without constant supervision. In that case, either the owner has to understand and take on that responsibility, or have the dog put down.

I agree with the first part of this sentence, although I strongly disagree with the last part. Actually, that is one reason I have not owned a dog for the past 20 years. The area just got too grown up to allow the creatures the sort of life that they need. While there are a number of breeds that do well in "indoor only" settings, the larger dogs that I preferred really need to be able to roam. The more folks packed into the area, the more chance that the dog will run across someone whose irrational fear will cause problems...so...no dogs. THe bottom line for me is that it is a bad thing to label ANY breed of dog as "evil". The behavior of ANY dog completely depends on the training and level of attention that the owner gives to the dog. Regards Dave Mundt

[Peter De Smidt]

That's quite scary, though, isn't it? Clearly most owners are not knowledgeable or equipped to do such training, and it's a leap of faith that it's possible to overcome this inborn tendency. You might make it less likely that your dog will attack others, but will you totally remove that urge? I doubt it.

Consider Siegfried and Roy. Clearly they trained and socialized their animals much, much more than the average dog owner, but nonetheless tragedy struck. Training can mitigate inborn tendencies, but that's not the same thing as removing them.

That's not true, the behavior of any dog completely depends on it's training, and on it's genetic pre-dispositions and the environment. Otherwise you could train a newfoundland to be as good a sheep herder as your average border collie.

-Peter De Smidt

[Swingman]

Tsk tsk ... next we're going to advocate civil rights to animals?

You certainly CAN make that generalization about ANY animal that was _specifically_ bred to attack and kill ... just as you can safely say that any dog running loose in an urban setting is NOT receiving the proper attention. Put the two together, particularly with an American Pit Bull, and you're asking for trouble.

AAMOF, if you have a dog you love, _you_ damn well better make that generalization the next time you see a pit bull running loose close by.

I grew up with one. I've no doubt there are many that are lovable creatures in the breed (we owned a Staffordshire Terrier - given to my Dad as a gift by the CEO of Chevron Oil Company of those days - which was basically the same breed as American Pit Bull at the time, and while well trained and lovable to humans and children, would attack and kill another dog in a heartbeat, and did on more than occasion).

Sounds good ... but I still have the scars on my hand to prove, inarguably, that this is not correct. The pit bull that got me years later, and the little boy, was a well trained family pet that was following his inherent instinct to attack and kill the other dog.

I've been around dogs all my life and have never seen another domestic animal with the instincts of the pit bull.

[Swingman]

creatures..."

See my other post on the subject.

Not true at all of the pit bull .. inarguably, the pit bull does not have to be "trained to do so" ... it was bred _specifically_ "to do so".

Too the contrary, as general rule thay have to be trained NOT to do so ... a circumstance I don't necessarily relish with the number of idiots running loose in this culture, and certainly not one I would rely upon to safeguard my dogs, or even the children in the neighborhood, particularly if they are walking a dog.

I like dogs, have been around them all my life, and have owned many breeds ... I've yet to see a dog with the propensity, and the tools/physique necessary, to do "damage" to another dog, or human if they get in the way.

You can argue all you want, and I would own another pit bull ... but not in an urban setting, and damn sure not without kicking my umbrella policy up a few more million.

[Swingman]

Precisely!

Absolutely correct ... and particularly with a breed like the pit bull, it's damn scary that anyone can actually think otherwise.

[Charlie Self]

Peter De Smidt responds:

Sorry. The analogy doesn't work. Tigers are NOT dogs and no attempt has ever been made to domesticate them.

Generally, though I tend to agree with your conclusions. Some dog breeds are more likely to be good shepherds, or fighters, than others, along with all the characteristics that go with each job.

Charlie Self "Politics, n. Strife of interests masquerading as a contest of principles." Ambrose Bierce, The Devil's Dictionary

[Charlie Self]

Swingman responds:

I agree. Our little mutt--15 pounds of wiggle and wag, basically--was in the yard last week, and I got her in the house in a hurry when two pit bulls ambled down the drive. I'd never seen them before, but shut the doors and drove to town to borrow a shotgun.

I'm not about to give two dogs that size a chance to show much more than a frigging HINT of agressive behavior on my property. There is no leash law in this county, something I consider a bad mistake as population grows and wandering canines increase in number. Sooner or later, something serious is going to happen to a child, rather than another dog. Then action will be taken, too late for the child.

That won't happen on my two acres.

Charlie Self "Politics, n. Strife of interests masquerading as a contest of principles." Ambrose Bierce, The Devil's Dictionary

[Peter De Smidt]

Charlie Self wrote:

I never claimed that tigers are dogs. My point was that socialization and training do not remove inborn tendencies, and my example demonstrates that. Behavioral training and socialization of tigers, dogs, hawks (which I've done), killer whales,..., are all very similar, and use well established behavioral conditioning, even though the specific inborn tendencies are quite different.

But in any case we seem to agree on the overall point.

-Peter De Smidt

[mp]

Ideally, one would like to think so. Unfortunately a large percentage of reported pit bull attacks were from seemingly gentle family pets that just snapped and went wild.

[mp]

Leon must be proud to have a breed named after him.

[Nova]

I knew an acquaintance that had three pit bulls. He used to fight them every weekend. When anyone asked they were just "family pets" too.

-- Jack Novak Buffalo, NY - USA (Remove "SPAM" from email address to reply)

[Jay Knepper]

Your aquaintance is a scum bag. The breed was originally developed to be agressive to animals, but very people-friendly. In my research I read of how owners of fighting dogs would regularly stay in the ring with their dogs, get down beside them, and urge them on as they ripped each other apart.

So it is possible that his dogs were not a threat to you or to his family. However he was participating in a criminal activity, and probably not someone you would like to sit down and have a beer with.

Jay

[Mark Hopkins]

[Tom Watson]

Uh Oh - this is starting to turn into a Puppy Wizzard thread.

Regards, Tom.

"People funny. Life a funny thing." Sonny Liston

Thomas J.Watson - Cabinetmaker (ret.) tjwatson1ATcomcastDOTnet (real email)

[Badger]

Your lucky to have that option, in the UK they effectively banned "pit bulls" and "handguns", now there are lots of both illegally owned and misused. As far as I'm concerned anything that looks like a p/b, p/b cross, staffie or similar is *probably* now owned for image "I'm 'ard, f*ck you", not for the love of the breed its self, though as always there are a few exceptions, but the generalisation might just keep you safe, never trust one, even if its not being aggressive YET.

Niel, former frontline ambulance tech. BTW the lab is the most common biter in the uk, except a lab usually only nips when really pushed by stupid kids 'cause they think they're soft...

[Lobby Dosser]

Peter De Smidt wrote in news:415efe92$1_3 @newspeer2.tds.net:

ANY dog will attack any other, or anything else. They are predators. Predators are aggressive. The only differences among dogs is size and ability to do damage.