OT again: Parents could be fined for missing school meetings

[Charlie Self]

I'd say it won't make a blind bit of difference to anyone or anything except the parent who is fined. Cost of collection is likely to exceed revenue, for one thing.

We're arguing about this as if all the school systems not using it are failing (or vice versa); I have to sit back and wonder just how big a problem broken appointments truly is. How many parents actually make appointments and then don't keep them, on a state-by-state basis? In other words, how many are extremely rude?

It strikes me, and this may be totally wrongheaded, that the problem exists mainly in inner city schools, with some slop-over into other urban schools, some suburban and a few rural. I've heard complaints here about parents not showing up for parent-teachers days.

In other words, how big a problem are they trying to cure with draconian measures that seem likely to be illegal or unconstituional to start, and to engender irritation otherwise.

Someone commented that it would be nice to get the druggies' and topers' attention and make them responsible parents. That is particularly laughable in view of the general failure of almost all behavior modification programs for such behavior. Adding one more censure and fine is a ludicrous step, and one that's probably not even noticeable to the parent floating away--is that what happens?--on a crack cloud, or submerging in a wine fog.

But we come back to the problem's size. How big is it? This time around, I'd think size really matters, IF the law turns out to be Constitutional.

[Swingman]

The cabal will indeed fine complainers if their 'Next' key is in working order.

.... while there is no cabal, they have ways of knowing.

[J. Clarke]

That's certainly fair. However teachers don't normally charge for the call. In fact I doubt that they are even allowed to. What you are proposing is akin to the dentist actually fixing your teeth for free and only charging if you fail to show up.

That may be the case, but you as a teacher also make your living off the government, not off of professional fees charged to the individual parent, who normally pays you nothing except indirectly via taxes.

As for your time being as "important" as your dentist's or doctor's time, how well did that one work last time you went for a raise?

So the meeting is not mandatory but you want to criminalize nonattendance anyway?

If you as a teacher don't understand the difference between a fee for professional services and a government-imposed fine then you are _not_ making the teaching profession look good.

[Leon]

It may bery well not make a diufference. I suspect that it will work on those that are part time participators more so than those that simply are not going to participate. If ther were no penalty many would disobey the speed limit.

I am sure that a large percentage are doing just fine. The HS that my son attended was by invetation only or if your borthers and sisters attended. the qualifier was simply to have made passing grades 2 years prior to attending and that your conduct grade be at least satisfoactory for those years. The school did very well on state testing the drop out rate was extrememy low. The community was mostly lower income.

I think it focused on a small town close to Houston in Brazoria county IIRC.

In some areas I'm sure it is a big problem but to single out a few problem schools tends to rub some people the wrong way.

I mentioned that and was hoping to get a laugh as the person I was responding to was using the same extreme examples of why some would not be able to attend the meeting. You and a few others "got it". It certainly was a far fetched example as were the ones like the single mother of 8 working 2.5 jobs. Possible but very un likely.

In the community that it is being consider in, pretty large. The simple solution is to simply get or stay involved in your child's education and behavior. Don't let it get that far if a problem is beginning to show. If you live in an area that most parents are actually tax paying US citizens and speak English the problem may not be so much. If you have nothing to hide you typically have fewer reasons to not attend your child's meetings.

[Leon]

Sure it is.

I have

That would be the reasonable excuse and reault.

As a teacher, I believe that my time is

Tenatively the parent will have the choice of 3 dates to attend the meeting if his child id having prpblems that require parental involvement.

As for the parent being

It is being proposed in Texas.

[Leon]

No they don't, God Bless them. But they should charge when they have stayed after hours strictly for you and your childs benefit.

In fact I doubt that they are even allowed to. What you are

Are are you not thinking again of just trying to be funny?

So you are unaware that many teachers have second jobs and staying after school to talk to you about your child keeps them from going to that job. And, if you think the teacher is going to get that $500 fine paid to him or her you really are kinda slow and especially if you think any one is going to believe that.

It has always worked for me. If I feel that I don't deserve one I certainly will not ask for one. How dumb would that be?

OK, the fine is for a couple of problem instances, not for a single screw up by the parent. So that you can grasp the concempt. If you pay federal taxes and have to pay an additional amount at the end of the year you have to file and pay by mid April. You can pay on most any day before that date but if you decide not to pay by that date you need to file an extension or you could be fined and additional amount.

I beg to differ. Hell, your comments made the teaching profession look good.

>

[B A R R Y]

The "+30" is manifested in her case and many other SCSU education department graduates by a second bachelors.

My wife left school one December with two bachelors degrees, one in Elementary Ed, the other in Spanish. She was hired the next day as a full-time public school teacher, with _zero_ "graduate credits".

She got her master's in Science Education 4 years later. The program she did her master's degree in didn't award progressive individual credits, but was a full time weekend / summer all or nothing program. She actually never had any graduate credits until she got them all at once with he degree. If she didn't finish the program she would have received zero credit.

No, but I know exactly what I paid for at SCSU and am not interested in splitting nits.

[Just Wondering]

Kind of hard to do when the school teacher tells you things are going OK until the final grade comes out, proving the teacher had been lying all along.

I think nothing anybody will do will lead to 100% parental participation. But I also think parental involvement would go up significantly in a system where a parent actually has some meaningful control over what happens regarding the student's education, which is something the public school teachers' unions do not want to see happen.

[Just Wondering]

How about a reciprocal law, that if the parent makes an appointment for, say, 4:00 and the teacher keeps the parent waiting until 4:30, the teacher has to pay the parent $500?

How about extending the law to doctors who keep their patients waiting, drivers license and vehicle registration lines, etc., where ANY professional or beaurocrat who keeps you waiting a half hour or more has to pay you $500?

I'd bet the teacher unions would be screaming bloody murder over a proposal that put the shoe on the other foot.

Can you prove a cause-and-effect relationship between any parent's failing to cancel a meeting with a teacher and his child turning to a life of crime or living on the government dole? NO? I thought not.

[Just Wondering]

Glen wrote: >

If you make an appointment with your dentist and doctor and he keeps you cooling your heels in the reception area for a half hour, then spends two hours giving you another half-hour's worth of attention, does he pay you back for the two hours of your lost time? NO? I thought not.

If you as a teacher made an appointment with a parent, and he appeared on time but had to leave without seeing you because you kept him waiting for a half hour and he had another commitment on his time, should you pay HIM $500 for missing the appointment? Would YOU willingly accept such an arrangement?

[J. Clarke]

That's a policy of the college, not a requirement of the regulations.

Would you read the bleeding regs? If she got her master's 4 years later that means that she got her two degrees and zero graduate credits before some time in 2003, when the regulation changed, before that it was just 30 hours of courseword, it wasn't until late in 2003 that the requirement was changed to 30 hours of graduate credit.

As for her enrolling in an "all or nothing program" that was her choice, again not a requirement of the regulations. One is not required to enroll in a "program" to get 30 hours of graduate credit--every grad school I've ever encountered allows one to take individual courses.

You seem to be confusing choices that individuals have made with actions required by regulation.

You may know what you paid for but if you don' know the regs you don't know if you got a good deal or were robbed.

[Leon]

Are you really an ostrich? ;~) I thought so.

[Leon]

You saw none of your sons report cards, you saw none of your sons work, and he suddenly failed. What a shocker. You must be reeeeeely easy to fool.

[Robatoy]

Uh oh... lemme guess. Is he at it again? Seems that is all he lives for. I see the name show up on the list. I sort it by 'reply' and I see this ol' familiar see-saw. I can't believe my eyes.

What an asshole.

r (things warming up a little down there?)

[Charlie Self]

Let's keep our attributions straight, Leon. That line above was from Dave Miller, not me.

Uh, sure. Except that would knock off about 5%, and Bush is already shaving things as close as possible, plus some, outside of military expenditures.

Incidentally, what do you call "welfare"? SSI? Or VA disability pensions?

Aid programs? Heating help for the elderly? Aid to Israel? Aid of any kind for any European country (I'll buy this one right now).

Put some specifics to your generalities while you're getting those attributions correct.

[Charlie Self]

snip

Oh, good grief. Problems "others may not have." The illegal alien problem is spread across every state, with the possible exception--not probable--of Alaska. It may be larger in Texas and SoCal and Arizona and New Mexico...oh, wait. We are past the "other states" already. Virginia has problems with it, NY has more problems with it, and on.

And that is the simple truth. Probably 90% of the problem with American education today is lack of parental involvement, even to the degree of making sure kids do their homework.

There are behavioral problems, even in rural areas in the Bible Belt where you wouldn't expect a girl to get in-school (WTF is this?) suspension for giving a guy a BJ in the high school hallway.

Do we blame that on the school? Parents? Church? Two out of three ain't bad, and the school is not part of that of that equation.

Public schools HAVE to accept anyone within specific areas in specific age ranges, at least until behavior becomes so bad they can be kicked out. Private schools, and home schooling, get to cherry pick, taking only the kids who are either interested in learning or who can be motivated to learn without major problems. In the meantime, public schools deal with the thugs, creeps and disabled and get dumped on thousands of times daily for not "teaching our children enough" when probably half the time, the complainer's kid has been urinating on the books on the lower shelves in the library stacks.

Do public schools need to improve, on an overal basis throughout the U=2ES.? You bet. Does splitting off money for other systems make it easier for them to improve? Nope. Makes it easier for an already established elite to go on about their business of further separating themselves from reality.

[Swingman]

Well said!

[Charlie Self]

I suggest sitting down and thinking of a solution that will work. What that is, I don't know, but I do know an across the board fine for missing a meeting is ridiculous.

Somewhere, somehow, parents need to be educated about children's behavior, and how it affects them and their classmates, as well as their later chances in the world.

How you do that with the severely uneducated, I don't know, unless they already have a drive to have their children become educated to escape their morass. Fining people with no sense of society for being being rude is not going to work.

[Leon]

Let's keep our attributions straight, Leon. That line above was from Dave Miller, not me.

Sorry Charlie, I did respond to your name but have filtered "Dave" ;~) out. He probably used your name to respond so that I would see him.

Uh, sure. Except that would knock off about 5%, and Bush is already shaving things as close as possible, plus some, outside of military expenditures.

Incidentally, what do you call "welfare"? SSI? Or VA disability pensions?

SSI for specific reasons answered below.

Aid programs? Heating help for the elderly? Aid to Israel? Aid of any kind for any European country (I'll buy this one right now).

All of the above. In Texas the electic utilities provide help for the needy. Add to that the Single unwed breeding machines that get more money for each child thaty have. People on unemployment that can actually do some kind of work and choose not to because they don't have to.

[Leon]

I suggest sitting down and thinking of a solution that will work. What that is, I don't know, but I do know an across the board fine for missing a meeting is ridiculous.

I have to think that this has been done time and again. The problem is, NEVER, are you going to please every one and you will always get the people that have excuses using others as an example. Valid excuses in some cases but lets not assume that the unfortunate may not be on board also. Let those that may be affected adversly voice their OWN openions on the matter. Knocking the proposal because of why it might affect others is a cop out. The under privilaged have the right to voice opposition if they feel the need.

You think the fine is ridiculous, I don't. That is a wash.

Somewhere, somehow, parents need to be educated about children's behavior, and how it affects them and their classmates, as well as their later chances in the world.

Yeah, this proposal would address that. Not as perfectly as you might think but it would make a difference in many cases. If you have a better way, suggest one, perhaps it will be considered unless the naysayers shoot it down.

How you do that with the severely uneducated, I don't know, unless they already have a drive to have their children become educated to escape their morass. Fining people with no sense of society for being being rude is not going to work.

Yeah, um I don't think that the proposal says anything about being rude. I mentioned calling to cancel an appointment a common courtesy because it is common courtesy. Calling to cancel just so happens to be a requirement to avoid an possible fine. So if you are a person that practices "common courtesy" making a phone call to cancel will not be a big deal for you.

Provisions are made for those with valid excuses for missing the meeting. I am sure a broken down car or stuck in traffic will be a valid excuse even if the call is not made before the meeting. Not calling to go to the hair dresser is not. And true, some people will lie and use a valid sounding excuse but a grand mother can only die a couple of times before things start looking fishy.

If we wait for a way to make parents come to the meetings that every one agrees with it will not happen untill the second comming.