OT again: Parents could be fined for missing school meetings

If you had read the next sentence, instead of leaving it out, you would have answered your own question. ;)

Name calling is also used as a cathersis for the name-caller, when he runs out of reasoned argument, to make him feel that he is doing something rather than doing nothing. Which, according to your argument, gives the name-caller a 50/50 chance of being right. Which illustrates the fallacy of your argument.

Another example. I see a woman in the mall, yelling at her child, calling it names and telling it other spiteful things, until the child breaks into tears. According to you, doing nothing about a wrong situation is always wrong. So it would be wrong for me to do nothing. So, I grab the mother's purse and take $500 out as a "fine." OR, I punch her in the mouth. OR, I grab the child and run out of the mall. After all, I'm doing something rather than doing nothing, so whatever I do, according to you, I have a 50/50 chance of being right. Right? According to you, of course right.

I know several, one in the Biblical sense.

Read the regulations. The requirement is "either a master's degree or at least 30 semester hours of graduate credit".

In other words when presented with the regulations rather than read them and find out what they say, and show me that I'm wrong, you'll bluster and call me names. That says that you aren't really sure of your ground and are more interested in "winning" than in determining the truth.

Man, there is some really weird opinons here. So much vitriol... and you can really smell the differevces in people and their respective generations, and for those playing the rec.woodworking home version for some time, it has to be fascinating to see the personalities reveal themselves. It sure has been for me.

I am surprised to see here that so many think that the only ones affected by this would be homeless Asian lesbian single mothers of two that have 3 eight hour a day minimum wage jobs that they ride the bus to every day. All of those folks seem to work for pitiless tyrants that perch like vultures waiting for any infraction to fire them.

In the rough and tumble world of blue collar construction workers, it works like this at my company: "Hey Robert... can I have a long lunch on Wednesday? The boy got his dumbass in trouble again, and me and the old lady need to go meet his teacher before he falls to far behind". It is Monday.. they show me some consideration, so it is mutual. "Yeah, go ahead... just get back as soon as you can." Or I may have to ask him to move it up or down a day or move the time of day. I am not blowing my own horn; it is good business and employee relations in the 21st century.

Strangely, all the construction companies > I < know operate this way. It makes good employee relations, and that almost always comes back to you. But there is another aspect, too. If I said no, they would go anyway. Many of them are like me, without a strong family life, so the in turn have made the decision that they kid will have what they did not.

Also, as a card carrying member of the great unwashed like me, those same guys see the value of education. They tell their kids what I was told as a kid by my father. "You listen to me... I go to work every day to feed, clothe and put a roof over your head. So does your mother. If you think you are going to barely slide through school when all you have to do is pay attention and do your homework to get by, you have another thing coming". I paraphrased, and left out all the colorful metaphors.

My Dad went to one parent teacher conference, and after the special consultation he had with me when we got home, I made myself scarce around the house for about a month. It straightened me out for another three, too.

Having done a lot of work for school teachers (you get referrals from one, and they are a referring bunch!) I have had a chance to talk to many of them across the economic range. Believe me, it isn't just the poor, downtrodden, and economically disadvantaged that miss these meetings. Busy soccor moms, cheerleader moms, football moms and dads, moms and dads with more than one kid, all seem to have great reasons for not wanting to meet. I love what these teachers of our upper class tell me the responses are when meetings are missed.

"I thought you would call me and remind me of the meeting"

"Well, since I already missed it, can you email me something?"

"I talked to my kid and he says he will take care of whatever it is you are calling me about"

"Do you have a supervisor? I think this is something we can handle on the phone and I have just enough time right now"

I don't know about anyone else's community, buy in ours the well to do have just as many problems as the not so well to do. In fact, I think in my almost 35 years as a blue collar man, the blue collar system has less problems with the kids.

Someway, some educators got in their minds that face to face is better than telephone conferences, etc. That has been a long held belief here in sunny Texas for years and years. Ever since I can remember, and certainly when I was a kiddo, we had telephones and telephone consultations would have been used if effective.

In some school districts, the teacher (!) want this fine, as THEY are getting blamed when the parents don't show up. They are bound to ahe a certain amount of contact with each parent of their (average in Texas is I believe 164 in high school) kids every semester. They are further bound by the rules of their district to approach parents when they cannot control or teach their kids. So whether they want to or not, they are actively involved in the contacting of parents whether it is an innocuous update or for discourse on a subject of greater gravity.

The guys here should know too, that no one here thinks in their hearts the fines will provide THE key to parental involvement. It will provide impetus for some, and not for others. But the guy that wrote the bill is a bit of an idealist, surrounded by other idealists, and he felt like they would be successful it they just reached a handful of parents they wouldn't have otherwise seen. Really, his bill has almost no chance of passing, but was meant to engage people in constructive commentary and to draw attention to the problem. Also, having heard the man speak, in his bleeding heart it is a cry of concern for the children.

In one way, it sounds too thin to me as it will not doubt take millions to implement the plan, fight off the lawsuits filed by the ACLU, etc. and for me, I am at all sure these kids and their parents are worth my tax dollars. You cannot legislate the interest of the parents, nor undo years of culture and parental upbringing with a fine. A fine or two probably won't change the parenting efforts of most adults. If the parents are raised a certain way, chances are they will raise their kids that way. In years past, rich, poor, middle class, and all in between made time for their kids when they wanted. I don't think the parents of this school generation of kids are any different; they will be as involved as they want to be.

And if parents want to ecourage their kids to be successful, and have the courage to insist on the type of discipline that makes success happens, they will do it on their own.

In Texas, they have tried all kinds of plans, programs, ideas, rules, etc., to make the parents more involved over the years. Politicians have thumped the podiums telling us of why we need more money and ideas thrown at our education system, and how we need to get parents more involved. "Parental involvement is the key to success" they say. But none of the ideas they have are more than moderately (at best) successful in engaging the parents into the process of education. (But God bless 'em, I would have given up long ago. Some of those guys keep pitchin' year after year.)

So I guess the real question here to me is this:

If we just save a few kids, and I mean just a few, is it worth it to the average guy on the street? Should hundreds of thousands be spent to make this a bill, then the same spent again to implement it as a law, and maybe millions in attorney's fees to defend the state against the lawsuits that will surely come?

I dunno. I don't think we will have a bill that becomes a law to test that, but I am not too sure I am interested in finding out the results for a few million bucks.

Now if someone could come up with a surefire solution that would work without doubt, I might get behind it. I am sure others would, too. But until then...

Robert

Which is better than be in just plain wrong.

I have aproached women with unruley kids in the grocery store and offered to help. Neighborhood kids also. the wome are most often very appreciative. Seldom does a woman want to be the opject of observation for unruley kids.

So it would be wrong for me to do nothing.

If it was a cronic problem like it is in the schools, yes.

Then you would be breaking the law. That is wrong. Are you really this simple or just argumenatitive?

Try offering to help. That woud be doing something and right

RE: Subject

It is a given that the public schools are a mess; however, the last place to get ideas to fix them is from the resident of 1600 Pennsylvania Ave and his cronies.

They have created enough problems.

Lew

Because the teachers do not teach the kids to be disruptive, the next responsible person in line is the parent. A majority of the time a student that is disruptive does not have enough adult supervision. the teacher cannot devote as much attention as the parent. The reason to fine the parents is because most all measures in getting the parent involved have been exhaulsted. If a 12 year old child torches a neighbors car, should the parent not be called to take action? School should be prepairing our kids for real life. Unfortunately undisiplined kids have a rude awaking when they get into the real world and have to face the concequences of their actions. That is mostly thier parents fault. We like to think that it is some one elses responsibility but no one is more responsible than the parent. Teachers are paid to teach. Shall we help them do their jobs?

That actually would very very often be far in excess of $500. I live in a very modest sized home, 1,300 ft. and a majority of my neighbors live in like sized homes. For a fact a couple of my close neighbors gross in excess of $200,000. I feel a fine that gets the parents attention would be the best method and I am still up for reinvesting the parent's fine into the tutoring of his child into what ever area the childs needs along with more parental involvement.

I do not for one second think that the proposed legislation will be good for all kids. Regardless of what happens there are going to be some that are left behind but doing nothing will be worse for more.

There is a difference between lawful and unlawful acts.

What I like about the proposal doesn't even outweigh what I dislike about it, but the fact that it does not involve money flowing _out_ of the government to solve a problem ...but the contrary ... and that it is financially punitive to the irresponsible and not the responsible, is its appeal to me that convinces me that it may indeed, be worth a shot.

But, admittedly a long shot at that ... but lawd knows nothing else has worked.

And none of the arguments I've seen here have come close to dissuading me from any of the above ... as well meaning as most of the participants are.

This has been an interesting discussion, but there appears to be some acrimony creeping in, and, since the weather is nice and I no longer need flames from the wRec to keep me warm, I'm gonna bow out.

Y'all have a nice day ... hehehe

I did not say that you did not understand, I indicated that you took what I said out of context. I have said it 2 times for you. The parent has a problem concerning his child. He agrees to an appointment and agrees to attend the meeting. If he then does not show and does not call and cancel with a reasonable excuse he will be fined. The fact that I mentioned common courtesy is perhaps a benefit of living in Texas. The fact that the parent did not show up for the meeting that he scheduled SHOULD be reason enough for the fine. The proposed law goes an extra step in favor of the parent and lets the parent get out of the scheduled meeting by calling and canceling. If the parent fails to show up "and" fails to cancel with a reasonable excuse the fine is issued.

Not in Texas, where the law is being proposed. I very often met with a teacher at night if I needed to talk to the teacher.

do you understand that the cost is not a direct one???? Do you think prisons run for free? Who do you think it is that pays for welfare?

Kids are not as stupid as you may believe. They know what is going on. Typically a note is sent home with the child long before meetings are suggested.

If you start basing arguments based on all kinds of

What assumed fact? If the parent breaks promices to the school he certainly has done it time and time again.

I can see your problem now.

No, I am trying to talk on a level that you seem to understand better.

And while I agree,

Do we,

A. Do nothing? B. What do you propose?

I'm sure that it won't surprise you to hear that the situation isn't limited to Texas. Texas and California probably have the greatest number; but it's become an issue everywhere - and I think more people will be affected than you'd guess.

Interestingly, the illegals up here seem eager to participate; and the general attitude toward them is anything but hostile. It may be that the climate does some kind of sorting - or it may just be some kind of (agri)cultural affinity.

|| Thus far, all that's been presented has been supposition/opinion || (for both pro and con) - including the notion that missing a || parent-teacher conference defines parental irresponsibility to an || extent worthy of criminal prosecution, the notion that a $500 fine || is reasonable and just, the notion that levying such a fine will || solve the problem, and the notion that this particular solution || won't invoke the law of unintended consequences. | | So what would you consider a fair penalty that would get the | parrents attention and his active participation in the social up | bringing of his child? I would be interested in hearing a better | one.

I took a shot at this further downthread; but don't know whether my suggestion would be an improvement or not. Some demographic/economic info would certainly make thoughtful discussion much easier - and it sounds as if there's a lot more heat than light being radiated.

| I think that if the parents would have not ignored the cry's it | would not have gotten this far in the first place.

Agreed. Since you raised the issue of illegal aliens (I'm assuming Mexican), I've been wondering if lack of proficiency in English and/or fear of being deported might not be significant factors...

| How about impose the $500 fine but it can be paid out over 12 | months and all of the money goes directly back toward that childs | education and supervision that he needs. Or the parent pays the | fine and gets the money back after his child's behavior and grades | has become acceptable.

If you're determined to get that $500 fine, how about payback when the youngster graduates from high school - or payback with interest in the form of tuition vouchers if the youngster has been admitted to a college degree program? No high school graduation, no payback at all. This approach might constructively address several problems at one time.

| I am totally up for suggestions. | The real shame is that it has had to come this far to get the | parents attention.

I agreee - but it's important to not let pent-up frustration lead us to produce problems worse than the one we're trying to solve.

||| What we _do_ know as FACT: The current system, which does nothing ||| to hold an irresponsible parent accountable, is not working. || || Are you saying that the system _will_ be working after enacting || this piece of legislation? | | No, nothing guarantees that. There are no guarantees in life | except that if we do not get involved in our childrens education | and behavior it will continue to get worse.

The question was rhetorical. FYI, this parent made a point of getting together with a group of his kids' teachers for coffee every Friday after school. Poor kids couldn't do anything their dad didn't hear about. :-)

-- Morris Dovey DeSoto Solar DeSoto, Iowa USA

IMHO, the problem starts with the litigious society we live in.

If a teacher looks the wrong way at a kid, they get sued.

More than once I got dressed down by a teacher and damn well knew enough to keep it to myself.

If my parents found out, it was better than even money my dad would have kicked my ass into the next state, never mind county.

Labor unions have and do serve a valid purpose; however, the teacher's unions have gotten out of hand.

The school administrations have become lazy. There is no incentive to be good stewards of the monies they are given.

The waste due to poor management runs rampant.

There are two extremes of the chain of command.

The shortest is the Catholic church. (The Pope to the Bishop to the Priest)

The longest is the army. It is a long chain of command from the president to a buck private.

Our schools need to be somewhere in between, probably closer to the Catholic church than the army, IMHO.

To summarize, they is plenty of blame to go around.

The schools, the teachers, and the parents are all at fault.

When and if the parents are willing to assume some responsibility and thus be able to demand a better product, they will get it.

Till then, good luck.

Lew

Well, George, how can you have equitable education for all if you don't redistribute? I know, let's fund all schools up to the amount the lowest taxbase neighborhood generates and eliminate all fundraisers - tadaah!

We are mostly on the same page here Lew. Many changes need to take place. I blame the parents for letting it go this far. After that no one is innocent.

No, not suprised, 90 years ago it was the Europeans and more of a notheren exposure. The propblem does seem to be more concentrated in the souther border states.

Maybe it is a far from home thing. ;~) The illegals here are more concentrated and many are into drug trafficing. They want to remain unseen. In more isolated cases they probably mix better. When they allow their kids to skip school and parade holding the American flag up side down and raising the Mexican flag with the Viva Mexico chant that they tend to get on every ones nerves. Anyway, they could at least contrubute to their own welfare.

I suspect that those factors are a big problem. I bet however if they showed up at the school there would be no problem with translations since Spanish a almost an offical language in Texas.

That sounds stronger than my thoughts but that would seem reasonable to me also.

Good for you Morris. My hat is off to you.

I read the rest of your post with great interest.

I have read all of the entries in here, also with great interest.

I saw a few fan a few flames, I saw a few with fire extiguishers, a few from the left, a few from the right.... and of course a few s*it- disturbers who have nothing to add, so they decide to stir s*it instead; business as usual. Yet, amongst the noise, a message seeped out that we all care for our kids. I have a niece, who taught inner-city in Witchita KS. Grade 5. My niece is tough. Smart and tough. She would slam her fist on somebody's kitchen table and demanded to know why Johnny/Suzy was so tired in the morning. She took the parents head-on. One by one, slowly things turned around...and why? Because somebody finally gave a s*it. None of the parents ever had to deal with a teacher who cared. When the 5's went to grade 6, some came to talk to the new 5's and were told not to f*ck with Ms P. She has told me a few stories which just blew me away. If a parent couldn't make it to a meeting, my niece would call and make an appointment to come see them...many of them suddenly found the time and way to make it to school to talk to the teacher.

Parents and teachers need to show a united front. Neither should have to wait for the other to make the first move. I have walked into my kid's teacher's coffee room un- announced. Most of the time with a bullshit excuse, but ALL pf the time to show the flag.

It must be hell to teach a kid, knowing his/her parents don't give a s*it.

Deadbeat parents will always be deadbeat parents. Legislation is NOT going to solve that problem any more than jail-terms keeps crack off the street. Ain't gonna happen.

All of this s*it starts at home.

r----> who has managed to stay out of this thread. (It is all done now, right?)

So, how much of a fine are we going to have for OT threads in the ng?

If I make am appointment with either my dentist or my doctor and I break the appointment and I fail to call to cancel the appointment I am charged for the office call anyway. To me, this seems fair. I have wasted his time and time is money. I have had the problem, pre-cell phone, when a problem on the freeway or something similar caused me to be too late to make the appointment and after explaining the situation, they waived the fee. Also fair. As a teacher, I believe that my time is as important as my dentist's or my doctor's time. The parent should either call or not make the appointment. As for the parent being "ordered to attend a meeting," I know of no state where a teacher can make such a demand. If you know of one, please share it with me.

Glen

First, you try to get people like yourself to realize that while you can teach a subject, the education comes from within. It's shouldn't be a knowledge cafeteria out there either, ought to get some standard of cultural continuation and comparability through use of the materials. My generation all knows Dick and Jane, but the only current common culture comes from sitcoms. Standardization.

Makes the _opportunity_ equal across the board. Which is the only thing we should be concerned with. Doesn't take fancy buildings, small classes, high technology, or any of the current educational Shibboleths, only a willingness to learn.

Why is it always money? It's no substitute for effort, anywhere.