Opinions/Flamecatcher - Craftsman Power Tools

I'm not old enough to know about the old stuff but have purchased a few new craftsman tools. I have bought my father 3 craftsman cordless drills in the last 10 years and still use my Makita purchased in 1995. I finally had to buy a new battery for it last year and when the third Craftsman drill dad was using died I wised up and bought a Makita like mine (got it from sears even). My Craftsman Professional router bought a couple years ago was anything but professional and caused much frustration and made me wonder what I was doing wrong when nothing would work right. When I went out and bought a PC router and pulled the bit out of the craftsman and placed it in the PC and it cut so much easier and smoother I was blown away, same exact bit just a different motor made a huge difference.

Reply to
Eugene
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Let me start by saying I am not trolling - I am curious. I am looking for opinions and if the subject bothers you, move on.

We see lots of opinions regarding tool brands here and Craftsman sticks out. It appears as though our opinions on Craftsman power tools run from very supportive to downright venomous. Personally, as I read some of these posts I try to imagine who sent them - particularly in terms of experience and age.

I am beginning to think some of the more disrespectful comments are coming from the older crowd who remember the power equipment Craftsman offered up until the early 80's. In fact some of us older geezers might still have

70's vintage routers, circular saws, sanders or other machines that are still serving us well. A lot of the maintenance on these old machines amounted to replacing power cords and brushes. We also remember when it took three guys to move their cast-iron winged table saws, drill presses or old jointers.

My theory - Much of the venom is coming from older folks who feel betrayed by Sears and are just pissed. Any truth to this?

(BTW - this is aimed at power tools, not hand tools, sockets, etc.)

Reply to
RonB

Why not include the hand tools? They are not as good as the older stuff either.

Actually, a lot of tools today are not as well made (durable) as they were years ago. Black & Decker used to be a respected name, Skil made its reputation with the circular saw for the masses; now it is a WalMart supplier. Sears made a decision to sell high volume at a certain price point. Some of their stuff is OK, but a lot is mediocre. Not knowing sometimes, I tend to avoid it all now.

Yes, I remember when Craftsman was respected and used by real craftsman. Right along side B & D and Disston saws. Life changes. .

Reply to
Edwin Pawlowski

I will also add that a lot of us older guys got started with Craftsman because the tools were readily visible and available at Sears. This was before the local borg offered a dozen colors and brands under one roof.

Reply to
RonB

Ed - I held it to power tools because they seem to get the most comments with the group. I don't think their hand tools have suffered as much but their prices are too high. I get the same utility and warranty from Master Mechanic wrenches at 1/3 to 1/2 the price.

I also agree that the same applies to B&D and others. Seems like Sears takes the brunt.

Reply to
RonB

I noticed the pattern. I agree. If we're not quite so old as to have Depression memories, we do remember the "greed is good" old days when lots of products, not just Craftsman, went down the tubes to MBAs with LBOs. RubberMaid >(

Maybe Craftsman is getting heat generated by disgust at the whole phenomenon.

Reply to
Australopithecus scobis

Clearly not confined to Craftsman. However, in my younger days Sears the borg stores were less common. For a young startup, Sears offered a good variety of tools and in a sense was a woodworking borg.

Granted there were industrial and tool stores available but many of us hadn't discovered them yet..

Reply to
RonB

Pardon error

Reply to
RonB

Totally disagree. Craftsman sockets, etc. are made by the same company that makes Matco professional tools. Of course Danaher doesn't make all of Sears hand tools, so there could be some compromised quality in certain lines. My nickel's worth.

Joe

Reply to
Joe Bobst

When I was growing up, and in fact, well into my marriage, Sears was always the first place to look for *anything*.

So, powertools, hand held and floor standing were acquired from them when I took an interest in woodworking (around 1980). The tools I bought were acquired on a project by project basis. As my projects grew more and more ambitious, the limitations of the tools became apparent, and not only that, but *all* the hand held units either went up in smoke or were had a flaw so grievous as to set it aside since it was likely to spoil the work. Like the self adjusting router bit depth.

To elaborate a bit on the "up in smoke" remark, I had a 1/3 sheet sander that did an excellent job of holding the paper (better than most new ones IMO) but the motor itself gave up when the insulation on the windings burned and began smoking. The same happened when a Craftsman circular saw I was using to rip 12/4 maple smoked so bad it simply stopped being able to cut anything. And my jigsaw's switch failed after only a couple of years of light use. I tended to avoid using it 'cause it was a case of lots of the proper noises, but not much on actual severing of wood fibers.

What did I learn? The hand power tools are too lightly built and performance is marginal at best when used in a serious woodworking hobby. By serious, I don't mean making pukey ducks, I mean armoires, beds, tables & desks. Real furniture, not cub scout projects.

However, the two floorstanding Craftsman machines I had were/are good. I replace the 6" jointer with a DJ-20, not because I became elitist, but because my projects are simply too large for the relatively short beds of that jointer. I still have and use the 10" cast iron top TS, albeit with lots of modifications like a Biesemeyer fence and link belt/steel pulleys. Perhaps without those modifications it'd be gone. The stock fence was so bad it had just about made me give up on the saw. I bought that saw around 1985.

In the end, Sears' policy of selling to a low price point taught me to look elsewhere first for what I want. Some things I might still buy on price first, but when it comes to other things, like tools, I check the quality and performance first, price second.

Price always plays a role in my decisions, but is tempered by the utility of the item. A cheap tool is no bargain if it can't reliably do the task at hand without failing in the process. This applies equally to brands like B&D and Skil. Craftsman is not alone in the "also ran" category in my shop.

Serious projects need serious tools.

Reply to
Lazarus Long

Edwin Pawlowski did say:

My only complaint with Craftsman hand tools is their thickness. Snap-ons will get into tight places that a Craftsman socket won't. Not that big of a deal for us amateurs, but for pro mechanics it's a real issue. Regarding durability; I think the pro tools are made from better alloys, but since they're thinner are about as durable as the good Craftsmans. The lifetime replacement warranty on any good tool kind of makes it a toss-up for durability.

Reply to
WoodMangler

Ah, where to start? I guess the first place is with the myth that Sears ever did make quality tools (I know Sears didn't make them, but for simplicity, let's just use the phrase). I have more than a little experience with Crafstman tools, and I know what I'm talking about.

I grew up in a woodworking/DIY household and I remember many, many trips to Sears and visiting the tool department (9, for those of you who wonder how Sears numbers their departments). Compared to the sorry pieces of 3rd hand junk my father was using in his shop, some of those tools looked positively magnificent. Perspective jolt: this was in the '50s/'60s.

I remember well the Christmas my mother bought my father a set of Craftsman power tools: saber saw (that's what we called a jig saw in those days), drill, sheet sander. Admittedly, they had steel bodies, but however robust they may have appeared, only one of them was still in his shop when I cleaned it out after he died, and I'm not sure it was working. I didn't even bother keeping it.

At one time my shop looked like a Sears catalog. Stupid? No. In the '60s, '70s, and '80s there weren't the places to buy Delta, Powermatic, and Porter-Cable tools like there are now. Makita and Hitachi were still on the horizon. There was no internet. There were precious few magaizines advertising them. Shoot, where I lived you couldn't even buy hardwood. I never had a piece of real hardwood until I was 30. (I can hear it now: you had softwood? We WISHED we had softwood. We had to build bedroom suites out of cardboard and we were grateful.)

I started out in 1972 with a Craftsman radial arm saw. Problems: well documented lack of stability in alignment. Cheesy table to frame attachment and fence clamp. My saw was one of the last with a solid cast iron column; they subsequently built them with bolt-together castings. It's waiting to be sold.

Around 1973 I bought a Craftsman drill press. It was okay. In fact it had a couple of features that I really came to appreciate when it came time to look for a replacement, as most Delta/PM/Jet didn't have them: quill lock, light. That said, eventually some slop developed in the quill--not axially; vertically. I tried and tried and tried to figure out where it came from and how to fix it and couldn't I replaced it with a Delta 17-925...with a quill lock. If I had to, I could lift the Sears DP. The 17-925 is around 250 lbs.

Around 1974 I bought a Craftsman bandsaw. Problems: pain in the butt one piece door that made blade changing tedious. Other than that this was actually not too bad a tool. I replaced it after nearly 20 years with a Delta 28-280. Same story as the one below about weight. It was impossible for me to get the saw up on the stand by myself without a block and tackle. And after a few times at the saw I could see there was a world of difference between the saws.

A year later ('75) I bought a Craftsman jointer. I could adjust the gibs on the infeed table perfectly square to the outfeed table OR I could adjust the height of the table with the adjustment knob to change the depth of cut. In years of trying to reengineer the thing, and with a second table from Sears I was never able to make the thing work like it was supposed to. I could edge joint boards reasonably well, but forget about face jointing. If you think that Craftsman and Delta are even remotely equivalent, I could lift the Sears jointer up and down off its stand by myself with ease. I challenge you to try that with a DJ15, much less a DJ20.

After initially building a lathe and never being satisfied with it, I bought a Craftsman lathe. It's okay, but my Jet mini lathe (acquired many years later) is twice the lathe, even at 1/3 the size. Also, in a common theme with other Sears tools, all the attachments are an odd size. Fortunately, that size is accommodated by most of the after market manufacturers, unlike some of the other odd size selections in Craftsman tools.

Table saw. Here we get to the heart of the myth that Craftsman used to be something. My saw, obviously acquired used, is vintage 1955 or thereabouts. It is essentially the same saw with respect to table and innards as the saws sold right up to Emerson's ouster in the late '90s. The fence rail *looked* better and I always thought had been a long lamented victim of lowered specs to meet a price point until I actually had it. What a piece of crap. I later added an aftermarket fence which does a reasonable job.

The trunnions are some sort of non-cast iron metal. I don't think it's quite pot metal, but then I'm not sure what that is anyway. They're nowhere, no way near as substantial as even contractor saws by other manufacturers, much less the redoubtable cabinet saws of Delta/Powermatic/Jet. And any thought of robust construction is dashed when you see and feel the sheet metal body that holds it all together. Again, I can lift the saw up and down off the base by myself, contrasted to the 400+ pounds of my Unisaw.

The miter slot anomaly of the Craftsman is legendary. They use a .750" slot (with a .746" bar) where other manufacturers use a .750" bar in a .755" slot. Sears advertises a "standard 3/8 x 3/4 miter slot", but it's only standard in Sears' saws.

Belt sander. I can't remember when I bought this, but the tensioning mechanism is a bastard set up if ever I saw one. I have to reengineer the damn thing every time I change belts. Consequently, it doesn't see much use. If I needed a belt sander any more than I do, I'd junk this one and get a new P-C, Bosch, or Makita.

Jig saw. I fought and fought with this piece of crap for years. The blades wouldn't stay straight and they wouldn't stay in place. Cuts were a crap shoot every time. I thought it was the nature of the beast (jig saw, not Craftsman) until I bought a Bosch. My god, what were they (Sears) thinking?

Router. ARHA (Automatic Random Height Adjustment). Need I say more? I've been bitten so many times by it that I'm ashamed to admit it. When I started buying Bosch, P-C, Hitachi routers, I realized just how all encompassing the Craftsman lie is.

Drill. Almost any other manufacturer's drills (except B&D) were more compact, smoother running, and more powerful than any Sears drill I ever had my hands on.

Circular saw. Bulky, underpowered. Compared to my P-C 347 and my P-C SawBoss, Craftsman saws are a joke. Even my throw-away Skils were better.

Folks, they are not tools that any true professional that depends on their tools for a living would tolerate for very long. They have gimmicks like lights on drills, and rack and pinions on routers that seem important to the uninitiated (they're not) but also mask other shortcomings. Flash, not substance.

They are not good value, unless you consider them as one or two job throw away tools. Sure you can make them last longer than that, but do you want to? If you've never used Porter-Cable, or Makita, or Hitachi, or Bosch tools, you may think the Sears are adequate. They are not.

No one can defend Sears tools by comparison to any of the "professional" grade tools such as P-C, Makita, Hitachi, Bosch, Delta, Powermatic, General, etc. If they try, it's because they've never used any of them.

Now there will be some responders who will talk about their particular Sears tool that they've had for years and can't kill. Fine. Even a stopped clock is right twice a day. But if you want long term comfort, power, reliability, precision, suitablilty for the task, etc., avoid Division 9 at Sears like the plague.

Craftsman is not, and never has been, any better than the current Black & Decker/Skil level of homeowner tools. The possible exception (particularly because I value Charlie Self's opinion) is the new Sears cabinet saw recently introduced. For me however, it's long been too little and too late. I will never, EVER consider a Craftsman tool in any way again.

And, yes, that includes hand tools. I've completely replaced all of my Craftsman screwdrivers with Klein. What a difference. The Craftsman chisels are gone; replaced by Sorby. The wrenches are slowly being replaced by Husky which feel better and look better.

One day, I will be truly Craftsman free. And they earned it.

- - LRod

Master Woodbutcher and seasoned termite

Shamelessly whoring my website since 1999

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Reply to
LRod

The lifetime warranty is still there, though- so it's not really as important that they are durable as it is with the power tools.

Aut inveniam viam aut faciam

Reply to
Prometheus

That does not necessarily make then as good as the old ones. I have a set of box wrenches and still some of the original sockets that I got about 40 years ago. Bring your tools over and we'll compare them. I bet you'll want to leave with mine!

Reply to
Edwin Pawlowski

Actually a more scathing review of the older stuff than I was expecting. I do have a couple of the older hand power tools that keep going and a Craftsman drill press that will probably be sold at my estate sale. I, like you, used to just go to Sears when I needed a tool - no more.

At the risk of start>

Reply to
RonB

I have a duplicate of most hand tools in a tool chest in my garage and stuffed in a tool bag inside my truck so if one were to break I have a spare.

Reply to
Eugene

In-laws bought me a B&D jig saw. I have pulled it out twice in the 5 years attempted to cut something with it and put it away, the thing can't even cut straight so even though it was cheaper than a good saw it was a complete waste of money because its totally unuseable.

Reply to
Eugene

Thanks...I think. I feel very strongly that the concept that the Craftsman of yore was good stuff is fantasy at best. Particularly since I lived the most part of that time. It wasn't...ever, to my knowledge. That, of course, is assuming that the standard of comparison is Delta or the like. And of course the argument is made that Delta isn't what it used to be, either. However, I feel safe in saying that Delta at its worst was/is light years ahead of Craftsman at its best.

As I said, I knew someone would say that. However, the Craftsman hand power tools, when compared even with contemporary brands were clunky, and fluffed with "features" that serious users didn't need or want. I can't remember a Craftsman tool that felt good in the hands like a Milwaukee drill, or a Bosch jigsaw, or a Porter-Cable circular saw.

Mine was an okay tool until the spindle slop started, but I'm also not a heavy user. The mass is again a big thing with it.

I was in one a couple of months ago. Bought a P-C 347 on clearance. I was so unused to getting a Sears bill I was ready to dispute it when the purchase showed up on the account.

Well, they're certainly not starting up the use of Meehanite cast iron, that's for sure. Ryobi plastic from South Carolina is the best you'll see from them, at least in the Craftsman line.

However, let's put this all in perspective. We here on the wreck are not Sears' market. I had a discussion one time with a friend who was an occasional DIYer and who was talking about getting a jig saw to do some paneling. I had just gotten my Bosch and was extolling the virtues. He asked how much and when I told him $150 he blanched. He said he could buy a $30 saw, do a satisfactory job on the panelling and throw it away FIVE times for what I paid for the Bosch.

I couldn't argue with him. He had no sense of what the feel of a quality tool in one's hand meant because it wasn't important to him. HE and those like him are Sears' market. Consequently, from our point of view, Sears will continue to go downhill.

But my most important point is about the myth that Craftsman was ever really anything different than that. They NEVER were competition for Delta or Powermatic, Porter-Cable or Milwaukee.

- - LRod

Master Woodbutcher and seasoned termite

Shamelessly whoring my website since 1999

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Reply to
LRod

I don't resent it - just got educated and moved on.

Well spoke, Bob. My experiences have been similar, if a little later. I bought my first Craftsman power tool in 1986. It was a "2.25 HP" circular saw, middle of their price range at the time, and on sale the day I needed it. It had 1/16" end play in the shaft right out of the box. But it cut like a champ when I used it on my first major project, a deck for my parents house. I bought several more Craftsman tools in the next few years, but quickly graduated to the top of their consumer line on all subsequent purchases. Those tools served me well on the occasional project the average handyman attempts. Then, I got serious about woodworking and used that saw to build a shop. As my skills grew, I could see the compromises that were made to make these tools affordable for the typical homeowner, who might use them two weekends a year.

If I had remained that typical homeowner, those Craftsman tools would probably have survived to pass down to my grandchildren. But I changed. I required more accuracy and finesse from my tools and became more frequent in my use of them. Some died of overwork. Their deaths were not mourned because by then I was ready to move up anyway. Some refused to give up, but just weren't a joy to use anymore. These I passed down to others, who thought they were great.

I don't use any Craftsman power tools anymore, and I don't recommend them to those who are beginning to take up woodworking. But when that typical homeowner asks me what to buy, I still send them to Sears.

I'm sure those who remember the days when the name Craftsman meant a tool fit for a craftsman are right. The quality of Craftsman tools has fallen since your Daddy's day. But what they forget is that the prices have fallen too. That Craftsman saw your Daddy bought in the

50's probably cost him more than a day's wages. Today's saw is paid for in less than half a day.

I think a woodworker from any previous age would be amazed at the plethora of fine tools available to us from manufacturers such as Porter Cable, Dewalt, Makita, Hitachi and others. And they would be amazed at the quality of Craftsman tools too, considering what we pay for them.

DonkeyHody "We should be careful to get out of an experience only the wisdom that is in it - and stop there; lest we be like the cat that sits down on a hot stove-lid. She will never sit down on a hot stove-lid again---and that is well; but also she will never sit down on a cold one anymore." - Mark Twain

Reply to
DonkeyHody

It is not very important if you round off the blade of one of your six screwdrivers. OTOH, if you break a socket removing the last head bolt on your enngine, it is 8:30 PM and the nearest Sears is 30 miles away, quality suddenly becomes very important.

Reply to
Edwin Pawlowski

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