Old fashioned wood planes verses router

Routers (especially with carbide bits) have a less acute cutting edge than the iron (steel, actually) of a plane. Yes, the cut of a plane is smoother, but it also depends more critically on the wood grain and toughness.

Some edge ornamentation uses high-angle planes which are less sensitive to grain. The most extreme are called 'scratch planes' because the edges are as blunt as a carbide router bit.

replying to OFWW, Iggy wrote: That's the trade-off. Planes are smoother, quieter, a lot cleaner and don't require electricity. But, Routers are vastly more compact than a bunch of planes and they're scalable, versatile and especially precise. A little sanding is a good trade.

Assuming equal sharpness, yes.

whit3rd wrote in news: snipped-for-privacy@googlegroups.com:

As I understood it, older carbide had a rougher grain structure so it was difficult to get a really sharp edge. They've figured out how to make carbide with a much finer edge which means the carbide can actually be much sharper.

Puckdropper

If equally sharp, generally yes they would leave a comparably smooth surface. The biggest problem with molding planes is that you typically cannot change direction to deal with the grain so tear out and grain related chatter can become an issue. With rounds and hollows you might be able change direction... but not always as the relationship between the iron and body of the plane can affect things, i.e., the iron would have to be perfectly centered if you are using an edge or straight edge to guide the plane, and the iron would have to be perfectly symmetrical so the cuts would match up perfectly. Then again, just how perfect does it really have to be? If you don't notice the variance from 5-10 feet away it probably doesn't.

It's not the seeing, it's the knowing. ;-)

Scratch planes, a new one on me, found this,

Now I understand. Also very interesting. A good use for old saws. It'll now be stuck in my mind, nice way of making a bead for cabinet doors and stuff.

What you mentioned about grain patterns having a lot to do with what happens when using a router and from what little I've read the Carbide is less smooth /sharp then a high speed carbon steel bit. That the steel bit just doesn't last as long before requiring service. But I don't know that for a fact.

That makes sense. There are always trade offs. I was watching one older guy teaching on planes and he wryly mentioned that using a molding plane he could have a door done, or whatever, in less time that it takes to setup a router with bits, test, and run. It sure make you think.

If that's not the truth.

Absolutely but you must be proficient with sharpening the planes and a bit of practice.

On 23-Nov-17 8:18 PM, OFWW wrote: ...

One-off, perhaps, depending on just what is being done. The setup becomes the ticket when doing a full kitchen-full of doors or the like.

Not that moulding planes and so on aren't useful to have and have their place; I've a full set of the Stanley 95 irons plus any number of made-for-purpose irons as well and it gets a fair amount of practice yet. But it won't be likely to be first choice for anything but the short run or the case of going into "full reproduction" mode rather than "utilitarian".

The biggest difference other than being able to make custom shapes other than the available store-boughten patterns is that no matter what, there will be at least the slightest amount of "router wave" when done as the router doesn't cut in a straight line but an arc. It can be minimized by slower pass (at risk of burning, try doing cherry, for example) and larger the diameter the better, but it's still there...

That's why I tend to still use the full spindle shaper over the router; the diameter is so much larger (plus, of course, the big surface table is nice).

No doubt. I've been making probably every mistake in the book, ruined a few water stones and stuff in the process. Plus other stones, and such. I have learned far more what not to do, than to do. :) This includes sharpening chisels, and scrapers.

I even bought a calibrated granite stone for sharpening with paper but somehow have lost the stone.

Recently I bought a Wen water stone sharpener, and bought some accessories for chisels, knifes, Kitchen knives, etc. I can do more faster and with better results than ever before. It is basically a clone of the good one but was 100 bucks instead of 700.

WOW flattening the backside of a chisel or planing knife is done in mere minutes, for the first time, and just seconds on touch ups.

With it I can now actually get an even wire edge on the scraper like everyone speaks about. It also makes it possible to get a nice edge on the ones that came in the kit with curved scrapers, except for the inside radius'.

The sharpening wheel default is 225 or 250 grit and with the filler stone it runs it up to 1,000 grit plus the stropping wheel. The price of a Japanese very high grit is about 300 dollars.

So now I sharpen with the Wen, and touch up with a water stone to 6000 grit when needed. but if I can find my granite stone I'll be using that, plus wet dry paper. to go higher when needed.

Yes, I can see that.

I'd love to hang out and help in your shop. :)

One of my reasons for asking is that I am doing repairs to a couple antique inherited pieces that I can pass on to my kids that are interested in it, and also redoing a semi-antique secretaries desk that was damaged and re purposing it to an entry way table, and that would be a one off piece and so I'd like to put the finest edge on it that I can. The existing piece except for where it was damaged was almost glassy smooth.

I hadn't noticed the cupping from a router before, or recognized it, but I'd bet I would see it now! :) And as to your mention of Cherry wood, I have been doing by best to minimize the burn with my limited knowledge, since even the 10" table saw will burn it where I have less problems on a 12" cross cutting chop saw. I'm making a wall mounted tilting full length mirror for my wife.

Which leads me to another question.

I've been considering making a new router tabletop, that swivels to upright position of use as a shaper or 90 deg router, plus a jig for doing mortises. It was feature on Woodsmith Magazine and seems like it would be great for a guy like me working in his garage.

...

Well, at the moment it's kinda in abeyance...but, you can still find old Stanley's on eBay for reasonable prices if you're patient...altho it's now been quite a long time since bought this one, I do notice every once in a while there's a pretty decent opportunity...

That's the perfect place to have the flexibility and agree it'd be a shame to not match an existing profile just because the router bit isn't quite the same as the particular pattern used...

...

Certainly there are uses for horizontal router....that appears a reasonable table design. Switching horses but horizontal reminds me I still covet the old chain mortiser in the geezer's shop I had access to in Lynchburg lo! those many years ago...

Do you mean like this one?

I see that Festool, Makita, and a few others have a portable type but with a much wider chain, for beam's and heavy wood.

Yeah, looks awesome, fast. If they had a reverse cut chain and you could reverse the motor you could eliminate tear out.

Thanks for the pointer, learned something new, that was old. :)

Why would one want to mortise chain?

Buy two, get $7.50 off. What a deal! ;-)

I don't think I'd have a lot of use for something that size. It's bigger than a Domino XL. ;-)

You guys need to trade in your 21st century lenses for some 18th century lenses... ;~)

Things in the 18th century were often made to patterns and items would look similar to like items but if you put them side by side and started measuring you'd find variance. This does not apply just to crude work, but rather to fine work also. Turned spindles is a good example... assembled in a staircase or the back of a chair and they look just fine even if there is variance. Flintlocks are another example, No one would ever argue that a fine flintlock wasn't precision even if it didn't have interchangeable parts.

I had a discussion at my woodworking club's meeting that came about when a member, who had a board about 1 5/8" thick, wanted to resaw it on a band saw. He was adamant that he get 2 finished boards 3/4" thick to make the panels for the sides of a frame and panel chest. We was adamant that they be

Get yourself some 18th century glasses... stress disappears and you'll find you can make very nice things even if they fail the micrometer test. ;~)

I could have used one of those for a recent project... I found out last week that the local boat school has one. Using my contacts there I hope to gain access to it for the next phase of the project!

I hear you, but it is still in the knowing. Not so much in things like production runs but in the one offs. In those days there were not a lot of home tooling that was anywhere near exact as we have now, and given the chance they would have loved to brought up their standards, rather than just making it fit.

The best of the craftsman in those days were paid handsomely for their beauty and symmetry of exactness. to the best of their ability.

When starting to work with wood products just given the nature of wood, the types, the moisture, the way the grain runs, the way the wood is cut all are variables that one has to deal with. It was a shock to me after working with metals in one form or another all my life. So understanding what you are conveying is not difficult for me, yet....I still want to keep the standards as high as I can.

What you speak of, I count on so when I am making something that I like and think other people would too then what is better than making two, keeping the best one and selling the other to someone who just want something nice or nice and functional. It is embarrassing hearing comments about it when you can see and know every flaw, even though it is not weakened in any way.

OTH, sometimes I wonder why I spent so much time on something when the little things did not matter in the end. Makes me feel stupid as a matter of fact. :)

So when I see something fine or of finesse, I truly appreciate it in wood working.