What is an "average person" in this regard?
The very talented Leon certainly isn't "average"? I, a long term novice, certainly isn't "average". We've both paid off our tools by building furniture so we must not be average.
What does your "average person" look like?
One who is not a woodworker by vocation or avocation.
Leon is anything _but_ average.
Someone who wants to save a buck so goes to the HD (or HF) to buy tools to build "furniture".
Man, that is so far removed from your original blanket statement:
"Doing woodworking to save money is a fools errand."
So says the king of one word retorts. "Idiot" I recall as one of your favorites.
Then I do disagree with you and totally agree with Derby. Also, I was wrong when I thought even you were incapable of such a lame claim. I guess if you consider the "average man" an idiot, buying tools to save money wouldn't work. I think the average man, and most below average men can save money buying tools and doing their own work, in spades if excluding time as a factor. Of course, I also assume the average non idiot can cut a straight line. Perhaps that's your problem...
Far removed, but just as lame. Sounds like he thinks if you buy tools at HD (or HF) you are incapable of saving money doing your own work. Only an idiot could make that statement. Probably thinks festering tools are needed to cut a straight line. Idiot is the word that pops into my mind.
Only to people who have demonstrated that they are an idiot, idiot.
And that only took you 10 more words than normal for you to prove my point.
snipped-for-privacy@notreal.com wrote in news: snipped-for-privacy@4ax.com:
Hmm -- Pretty harsh in my opinion. We looked at furniture early on and decided that I could build items that were a lot better & nicer than what we could buy in a store. I didn't go hog wild buying tools. I've only bought tools that I needed / could use / or woud make the job go easier. Yes I did upgrade from a delta to a sawstop table saw. Yes I did get a Laguna 1412 bandsaw as my first bandsaw. I decided that paying the $$ would be worth it in the long run. I still have the drool factor when I go into our local tool store but haven't succumbed to it yet (for the most part). This store is a locally owned store whose prices are competitive with online stuff. -- but that's a different topic.
If time is considered you're probably correct that it's a fools errand. Howeve since this is a hobby for me I don't factor it in.
If built almost all of the case goods in our house now and I'm starting to fill our sons house. No, I'm not charging him either - I may ask them to pay for wood, but haven't yet. So I'm probably a big dumb fool now. But who cares - it's a hobby for me and I enjoy it. Another plus is that my wife has loked everythin I build and has given me a blank check for tools. But I don't just go and buy everything that I think I want.
Your skill is just, if not more important, than the tools you use. A good tool in the hands of a crappy woodworker won't make him a good one. Only desire, practice, and time will. A good tool might make things easier and faster. I could get out router planes and route all dados and edges by hand on a piece. Doing it with an electric router and a router table makes it faster. Only the woodworker making the piece can decide which they want to do. There are advantages and disadvantages to both.
No one denied your statement, idiot. I was just explaining the facts of life but, of course, you're too stupid to understand.
But that's precisely my point. We do this because it's a hobby. No other justification is necessary.
That's certainly true. An expert can do wonders with just a chisel, hand saw, and a plane. However, the expert doesn't use an HF chisel, either. I'll never be at that level (not enough time or patience) but power tools are a lot of fun and I can see the results, more or less immediately.
While no other justification is *necessary*, it doesn't mean that "doing woodworking to save money is a fool's errand".
Definition: a task or activity that has no hope of success.
Doing woodworking to save money has been a successful endeavor for many of us.
LOL, At one time I did woodworking to help maintain my sanity. No shrink bills. :!)
So? How'd that work out after you got paying client? LOL!
That was when I was in the automotive world running the service department for an Olds dealer in Houston.
some of the attics have a lot of usable space that is unused i mean a lot
so inefficient but i guess it is all they know how to do so they keep slapping them up
he did not care as much what people thought it was more like he was preempting the usual remarks he might hear from the peanut gallery
the only time i was impressed by the tool set someone had was when they had obviously spent more time on the acquisition and maintenance of the tools
they had become a curator of their own personal tool museum
nothing wrong with that but way more interesting to see what is made using them
With almost 45 years of doing woodwork in all phases professionally (includ ing sweeping the jobs), I can't stand tool snobbery. It is usually propaga ted by the more financially well to do that think the tools make the projec t or job.
More often than not, tools these days are engineered for ease of use and to make up for the extreme lack of hand skills most of today's craftsmen and professionals have. There is a jig, a guide, a template, a machine and all sorts of other apparatus out there to day to make up for talent and trainin g. Lack of talent and training leads to stifling the experimentation that leads to developing confidence in one's ability.
When I am tired of the whining from the current labor/employee pool about h ow certain things cannot be done with certain tools, I take a very sad and pathetic pleasure of showing them how to do the task with their tools. Not mine, theirs. Our lack of investment in hands on industries as well as th e lack of interest from people in the trades is in full blossom now. Most actually think that buying a certain tool will transfer certain skills as i f by osmosis.
Good tools will at times help turn out a better job, but learning to use ji gs and purpose built machines has crippled most craftsmen. I have heard it more times than I can count; "you know, if I had one of those XXXXXX machi nes, I would start doing that".
I learned how to make doors with lumberyard materials, hang them in a site built jamb, mortise in the hinges, and drill/mortise/install the door lock sets and deadbolts. My tools were a good circular saw with a new blade (st eel!), a drill, hole saw, chisel, hammer, and some old "pony" pipe clamps.
Now I have trouble getting guys to hang a door properly, and any heavy or o ff balance doors I have to hang myself. Forget hiring someone that can mak e a jamb that fits a door. They know that in their mind it takes an extens ive set of tools to do so, but they don't know what those tools actually mi ght be.
OTOH, I have been to homeowner's houses and seen work that was fantastic. I go out in their humble shops and see bare bones tools, and certainly noth ing expensive. Just basic stuff, but the tools have been used to their ful l extent. It makes me happy to see someone with that kind of dedication an d initiative that has spent the time and effort to learn their tools.
I am reminded of a business seminar years ago I went to when I was trying t o sharpen my computer skills. The facilitator went around the room and ask ed us what percentage of our computer horsepower we actually used. I proud ly announced that I did graphics design (my own biz cards, promo flyers, tr i folds, etc.), my invoicing and accounts receivable, my bookkeeping, my co rrespondence, my contract generation, faxing, generation of reports, editin g of photos, and on a on. He said, "Congratulations! You are actually usi ng about 10% of your computer's capability!" then proceeded to show me over the next couple of hours just that.
Tools are the same way. Owning a super power computer doesn't meant you kn ow how to /really/ use it. Same with saws, etc.
It's the craftsman that matters.
Robert
The roof of my previous house had a 15:12 pitch and there was around
700ft^2 unused space, so I made the space into my shop (no basement).What I don't understand is why so many people care how others live their lives.
That's not what I meant. We've been over this before but if you'd like to continue, please keep droning on...
I never considered it "tool snobbery" even though the "financially well off" are usually the ones to have a large budget for tools. Like owning a Felder Exact 63 Planer and a 37" dual drum sander for hobby projects... It's their money and a Bass Boat didn't interest them.
How is that different from "minimalist snobbery" - I built all the cabinetry in my house only using a froe, spoke shave, hand plane, pocket knife, handsaw, and a framing hammer. All of which I picked up at a garage sale in 1957 for $12.00 ?
As opposed to hard to use...? That is bad - How?
Unless you are a gifted Wood Wizard doing one-off, bespoke, works of art that is bad how?
The tool snob knocks out a dozen little box jointed boxes using his vast array of tools - in this case the Incra I-Box jig - while you are marking, hand cutting, and chiseling one.
Then, when you finish, all 13 are compared. If you are very skilled, and took your time, your box matches the quality of the 12 done with the jig. Who gets the most bragging rights, - if that is important - and why?
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