Any 240v woodworking equipment need a neutral?

[Toller]

Is it fair to say that all 240v woodworking equipment runs without neutrals? I am running a new circuit and would prefer to use 10/2 rather than 10/3; but sure don't want to do it twice.

[Doug Miller]

It's fair to say that all 240V equipment that doesn't also have 120V loads doesn't need a neutral.

IME, big iron woodworking equipment consists, electrically, of a motor and a switch.

240V motors don't need a neutral.

As long as 10ga wire, and a 30A breaker, are appropriate for the load, you're good to go with 10/2 -- but consider that 10/3 would provide the ability to add 120V receptacles later if you need them.

Another thought might be to pull three individual conductors (red, black, and green) through conduit, instead of running cable. Then if you ever need a neutral in the future, pull a white wire through too.

[DonkeyHody]

I assume you are talking about 10/2 WITH GROUND. You don't need a neutral, but you definitely need a ground.

DonkeyHody

[Swingman]

Now, if you can convince my framing and trim crews of that, who routinely use two wires with NO plug to run their 220v equipment, my hat will be off to you! ;)

And for the OP ... In the sense that 220/240 equipment will work without a ground wire (just a hot from each leg is all that is "needed" to function), you don't "need" a ground for the equipment to work.

BUT, and it's a BIG but, you will surely want to have a ground, if for nothing else but code compliance and safety.

The neutral is not used for 220/240v unless the equipment needs 115v internally for timers, lights, etc ... not something normally found in woodworking shop equipment.

Now, we sit back and wait for the flames to start ...

[Chris Friesen]

Most doesn't need neutral. However, consider a 240V bandsaw with a 120V work-light on it. You could rig this up to run off a single plug, but you would need a neutral. (Basically the same scenario as an electric kitchen stove.)

That said, it would probably be cheaper to run 10/2 and 14/2 and provide two receptacles rather than running 10/3.

Chris

[Doug Miller]

That pretty much goes without saying... I think you'd have a pretty tough time buying 10/2, or anything else, withOUT ground, even if you tried. Certainly all of the 14, 12, and 10-ga cables that the home center stores carry have a ground.

[bf]

You can use 10/2... on most breaker boxes, the ground and white wire are connected to the same bus anyhow.. You only need 10/3 for something like a 4 prong dryer plug.

[alexy]

Or, cheaper yet, buy a 240-volt bulb. That's what my bandsaw has, but I've never replaced it--are they hard to find?

[Chris Friesen]

The safety ground is there for a reason...you really don't want to be running current through it on a normal basis, especially when it may be connected to the metal equipment body.

As mentioned earlier, if the 240V equipment has any 120V accessories on it, then you need 3-conductor wire and a 4-prong plug. (Or two separate plugs.)

Chris

[Markem]

You only have to fry one of them in front of the others really, the message will get across. ;P

Markem (sixoneeight) = 618

[Andy Dingley]

Not in most of the World, that's for certain.

[Doug Miller]

LOL! Good point. We know Toller's in the US, though.

[DonkeyHody]

OK, maybe my point was unnecessary. My point was not about the importance of buying the right wire, but hooking up the ground. It's really no different from wiring anything else he might be hooking up. I'm just anal about grounding. And GFCI. And a lot of other things you can get by with for ten thousand times before it kills you on ten thousand and one. I just don't feel nearly as immortal as I once did.

DonkeyHody "I woke up on the right side of the grass again this morning."

[Chris Friesen]

Yep, probably that's the best bet for a task light. I have no idea how hard they are to get...but they don't show up at my favorite tool store or at Home Depot.

Might have to go to a lighting supplier.

Chris

[Robatoy]

Swingman wrote: [snipped for brevity]

*smacking my forehead on my desk*

OH NOES!!!, Not THIS farking topic again????

As an EE, my philosophy is very simple: If you need to be asking questions like that, you shouldn't be screwing with it. And to even THINK about whether to use a ground or not is simply beyond me. I have seen accident reports and photographs come across my desk-------->>>220 can bite your ass big time, blow off a few fingers if you're really lucky and the juice doesn't go from one hand via your chest anywhere. That 220 will kill you.You will not be pining, you'll pass on. You will be no more. You will have ceased to be. Expired and gone to meet your maker. You'll be a stiff. Bereft of life, you'll rest in peace.........

I think the stock answer, here in the Wreck, should be: "GET AN ELECTRICIAN!"

And while the electrician is there, have him run some ground wires on your dust collector.

ok..my bad..

r

[Swingman]

... and joint that sumbitch while you're at it!

BTW, there is, or used to be, an "Electrical FAQ" posted here periodically back in the much kinder, gentler days of the _real men wooddorkers_ of yore:

ftp://rtfm.mit.edu/pub/usenet/news.answers/electrical-wiring/part1 ftp://rtfm.mit.edu/pub/usenet/news.answers/electrical-wiring/part2

Don't know if it is still valid cuz one of the necessary qualifications for the previously mentioned wooddorkers was having the (kinder, gentler) time to read through it.

[_firstname_]

Anything that has just a 240V motor does not need a neutral. But accessories such as lights do. As electronic controls on tools will become more common, I would expect more of them to need neutrals.

Just because you run 4-wire cable does not mean you have to install the much more expensive 4-wire outlets; those can be retrofitted when needed.

Side remark: What everyone calls neutral (on a 120/240V circuit), the electrical code calls the grounded conductor. What everyone calls ground, the electrical code calls the grounding conductur. The difference is small, but crucial.

If you don't want to do it twice, then run 10/3 (with ground!) now. Even better, in a few places where you might want to add high-powered tools (such as a 5HP table saw), run 8-3 instead; the cost is only a little higher. Ideally, you should run conduit (3/4" EMT is better, as it is easier to pull #10 and #8 wires through it); but installing conduit in an existing stud wall is a big pain, and flexible conduit is really hard to pull through. While you are at it, terminate all

240V cables in extra-deep metal 2-gang boxes (not plastic), with mud rings. Then you can later replace the single-gang mud ring with a 2-gang mud ring, and install larger outlets: trying to squeeze a 50A 4-wire 240V outlet > You can use 10/2... on most breaker boxes, the ground and white wire

If you mean by this that you can use 10/2 with ground wire, and then at the device end use the ground as both a neutral and a ground, you are absolutely wrong. Yes, they may be connected at the breaker box, but by no means on all breaker boxes (read the electrical code, in many cases they have to be isolated from each other). Deliberately running current through the safety grounding wire is extremely dangerous, bordering on suicidal. Extremely bad advice.

While we are at it: I would recommend GFCIs for everything in a shop, in particular if the shop has a concrete floor, is in a basement, or has any risk of getting wet. 2-pole 220V GFCI breakers for the electrical panel are inexpensive and easy to find.

[B A R R Y]

And you won't even be a parrot.

[B A R R Y]

What if it's a dust collector?

[Swingman]

No problem ... ground it to the jointer.