uPVC doors & security

[Huge]

We're looking at having some replacement windows and (4 sets of) French doors installed. The current favourite firm to do the work fits Rehau extrusion with steel reinforcements. I have concerns about the fact that the doors they fit have external hinges, although they say their doors meet PAS24. (*)

Should I be concerned? The installer's literature goes on about the security of the *lock* side (shoot bolts, etc.), but it looks to me like

30 seconds with a battery angle grinder to cut the hinges off and the doors can easily be opened from the hinge side, since they don't seem to have hinge side bolts, such as the ones I fitted to the (wooden) front door.

OTOH, as my wife points out, they're more secure than the wooden ones we have now. And if an intruder is prepared to do that much violence to a door, it's likely impossible to keep them out anyway. (FWIW, we have a monitored burglar alarm.)

So, what does the collective intelligence think?

(*

)

[Thomas Prufer]

Unless there is a real problem, like a hinge pin easily removable from the outside: "Eh -- it'll be all right." for this singular intelligence.

Sticky stuff on the glass, tap with a hammer, and you're in silently, no battery grinder. (The monitored alarm will do its job then.)

And there just may be pins that mate into holes in the frame on the hinge side, making removing the hinges pointless -- though I'd expect such a feature to be mentioned.

Thomas Prufer

[Andy Burns]

My three doors have Trojan "flag" hinges, the two on the house open inwards and have internal hinges, the one at the back of the garage opens outwards and has external hinges.

From the hinge side you can pop open a little cover to reveal the screws fixing the door to the hinge, and the hinge to the frame.

The locking bar on my door has multiple "sliding mushrooms" and hooks, as well as the main lock, so even after unscrewing the hinges it'd probably require a decent amount of wrenching to get the lock side free.

I can't see why they'd make them that way by choice though ... ah I missed french doors, so presumably opening outwards? What's the lock/bolt arrangement in the centre of the doors?

[Chris Hogg]

Presumably the doors open outwards. My late mother's French doors were similar, and it did worry me slightly. They did have hinge bolts, but they were pretty nominal. A solution would be to get the firm to supply doors that open inwards, so the hinge is on the inside, if that's practical for other reasons which it may not be.

Since inheriting the property and planning to move into it fairly soon, I've had a conservatory, fitted with inward opening doors, put on the outside to include those French doors, but it's an expensive solution!

[Jethro_uk]

Our doors locking mechanism drives pins into both sides of the door - when closed the hinge is redundant ....

[Dave Plowman (News)]

If you look at 'sink estates' etc, the only pretty secure doors seem to be either steel faced with no windows, or an additional wrought iron etc one.

[dennis]

My french windows have pins built into the hinges that stop you pulling them out if the hinge pin is removed.

They also have multipoint locking so the lock holds top and bottom of the frame too.

However don't expect any door to stand up to an angle grinder for more than a few minutes, they will cut through the frame and/or its fixings so the whole thing will fall out. That applies to metal frames and wooden frames too. Fortunately it makes a noise and burglars tend not to like noise. Of course if you live in the sticks noise might not be a problem to them.

[Dave Plowman (News)]

Mine has heavy duty steel thingies which engage in slots on the hinge side as you close the door, so even if you removed the hinges, would still be secure when closed. But given the easy way in would be to smash a window elsewhere, probably academic.

[Jethro_uk]

Well exactly. You're only slowing down at best :(

[Huge]

We're having acoustic (IOW, laminated) glass, so perhaps not ...

AKA hinge bolts or dog bolts. I've got a query out with the supplier about these.

[Huge]

There are multiple locking pins/mushrooms/bolts on the lock side, but AFAICS, nothing on the hinge side, so cut off the hinges & pry the doors open from the hinge side ...

[Chris J Dixon]

I addition to your peace of mind, you might also check what questions/ stipulations your insurers have.

Chris

[Huge]

Excellent idea, thank you.

[Huge]

Hmm, just looked on the LV= site and they don't mention hinges or hinge bolts. Just that uPVC doors have multipoint locking and BS3621 locks. Which the ones in question do.

[Dave Plowman (News)]

Look for a better make, then. The choice is vast.

[Tim Streater]

Yes. We've got these on all doors and windows.

[Brian Reay]

The standards changed perhaps 25 years back and the newer ones SHOULD have some kind of 'multipoint' lock as well as metal in the structure. There is a BS number but I don't recall it. The other thing to check is the 'beading' which holds the glass in place. I'm not sure is this included in the BS spec but the better one is on the inside. I recently saw a house which had beading fitted on the outside so it was possible (if difficult) to remove the beading and the glass from the outside. Not the most secure approach. The windows were, probably, original and the house built in the mid 80s.

Ours, fitted about 8 years back, has multipoint locking an internal beading etc. The only thing is with uPVC doors is you can't fit better locks- they all seem to be designed for something based on Euro locks. I've also been looking for electronic locks but haven't found any I'd trust yet.

[Brian Reay]

Why you get what you pay for, I'd not dismiss using a good local company rather than assuming only the big nationals are best. We used a decent sized local company and found them excellent- in terms of price, quality, and service. When we wanted some additional work- a porch- we had no hesitation in using them again.

[Harry Bloomfield]

Tim Streater submitted this idea :

As have we, I very much doubt any modern spec. door or windows will be supplied without them.

[Andrew]

It's much easier to just lever up a paving slab or some paving blocks and chuck them through the safety glass.

Fit laminated glass if you really want to keep the tea-leaves out.