Yes, they do look great in modern bathrooms or hotels.
They do, however, look entirely out of place in a painted wood panelled roll top (aka "Flake") bathroom, where decent reproduction pillar taps (preferably discretely implemented with ceramic cartridges) are much more appropriate.
I suspect that the former type of bathroom is more common, though. I entirely agree that fitting the free taps (and wastes) that come with the suite is a complete waste of time. They're usually of appalling quality and just there (presumably at the cost of a few pence each) to claim a complete bathroom set.
I downloaded the installation instructions. It is the only domestic combi from a large commercial range.
IMM said it was a hybrid of unvented cylinder and thermal store. From the manual: 108.5 litres in the thermal store (it says heating circuit capacity) and a total of 189 litres which means the unvented cylinder side is 80 litres. The unvented cylinder is totally immersed within the thermal store water. The heating is taken from the thermal store water. The heat exchanger runs right through the centre of the two tanks.
The DHW enters into a coil right at the bottom of the cylinder and then fills the unvented cylinder at the top after leaving the coil. I think this is to keep the bottom cool for the condensing part.
The 37 minutes recovery is from cold to 80 centigrade. It will always give 15 litres per minute minimum. In less than 17 minutes a full bath could be drawn off (half the 38 litre for 10 minutes, which is 190 litres). If the bath is 125 litres then about 12 minutes or so, 10 minutes or les if replying on the 15 litres per minutes to finish off at the end of the fill. This thing looks very impressive to me and performs better than a separate cylinder, and cheaper as well. A 35 KW Viessmann, or ACV boiler, a tank in tank and the controls to deliver
380 litres in 10 minutes costs more than the Heatmaster and takes up far more space and time to connect up. I am into delivering flows to at least 1 bathroom and en-suite, more usually two full bathrooms, and this baby delivers without any fuss and all in one box which is easy to connect up. It can be unvented from the mains, or vented if the mains can't cope, and can't be replaced, and then pumped from a tank. It is on the list of choices.
I agree with you. I have never renovated a period property. If I did I would install fitments to compliment the d=E9cor. It is logical as it would get the asking price and hopefully sell quickly. I would be weary of such properties as I don't fully understand that market and may get bitten. Restoring period features can be very time consuming and expensive. Those sort of houses are not to everyone's taste. The people who renovate them tend to live in them.
Yes. I withdraw my comment about not being innovative. It seems to integrate the boiler heat exchanger very closely into proceedings, in that the gasprimary water exchange occurs within the cylinder itself. It even appears to have a downward burner.
They appear to have undersold themselves, in that the recovery from a store depleted condition will be less onerous than from a store cold situation.
I'm not sure how they say this, though. From stone cold, it will need to heat up somewhat before it can service the supply, unless I've missed something.
The only surprise is the fairly average (for condensing) SEDBUK of only
90.9%. I'd have thought it would be much higher, given that they have taken such care to make the gas heat exchanger final temperature as low as they could under all conditions possible. Indeed, it is down to 5C in winter when actually drawing DHW (especially when drawing under 15lpm).
They have a great product and as you say are quite reserved about it.
I think the figure is after it is heated up, then it never get below 15 litres after the unvented cylinder and thermal store are depleted. That is my view.
The best is 91.3%, which makes the ACV only 0.4 below the best. Sedbuk say they could be out around 3%. If you look at it that way, it makes the ACV equal to the best. The only floor mounted combi more efficient is the Radiant RKA 100, which I have never heard of, so some more research to do. It has a 104 litre unvented cylinder (secondary water) and 26 KW, which may mean it can't give the flowrates of the ACV.
I disagree. I have been reading the manual. From what I can understand, it is different from all the others, being a mixture of a thermal store and unvented cylinder, and gives high efficiency as sedbuk will tell you.
It is in the Viessmann, Gledhill and Powermax group, but gives higher flowrates. It resists scale, which to me is not a great attraction. Anything like that I highlight to viewers, which all adds up to quality and extra on top making the house attractive to buy. If there is a benefit then tell them.
I don't know about the electric backup. You have two items that have to be piped up. I don't want that, I want one box for ease of installation, and if say an ACV or Powermax is fitted in the airing cupboard then they look smart and neat. Best in the loft as space is saved. People like space. I took one built in cupboard down in one house to open up the upper landing. With dimmable downlighters and some nice artwork the effect was attractive. All house viewers commented on the feel and space upstairs. 20 years ago more cupboard space would have been built, now people want openness, without open plan.
The ACV is the best flowrate from a system in a box I yet to see. When I need high flows for two bathrooms and say a Tower Shower the ACV may be the one to go for. =20
You're talking rubbish. It might well do for a short time until its (small) store is exhausted but most people think a combi can deliver its quoted output for ever. And many are sadly disappointed by such devices. That's the idea which appeals with an combi, but of course doesn't happen.
So it will fill *my* bath in the same time?
The mixer tap on my bath is designed for 22mm pipes. IE, 3/4 inch. If you want to use unsuitable taps that's your business..
You are gullible to the marketing wiles of form over function - a marketeer's dream. Do you buy Lottery tickets?
It seems that you are trying address markets with an inappropriate mix of products.
If you are trying to go for the market where appearance and *apparent* function is the key, you might as well go for fancy gold mixer taps, full body showers and all the rest of it and the cheapest combi you can buy. You could copy the manufacturers of such boilers and put into the estate agent spec that there is a two-bathroom hot water system.
Don't bother about it not working properly.
There is little point in going for products such as the ACV because if you just want to be able to be able to use the phrase "stainless steel" as a selling point, there are cheaper ways to do it. Then you have more money to spend on visual frippery like fancy gold mixer taps.
Alternatively, if you are trying to go for the market where function matters, you would be much better off going for a proper storage or thermal store system using a stainless steel heat exchanger or a boiler using a stainless steel heat exchanger. I suspect that this is a minority part of the market, however.
Certainly a product like ACV will do a better job than a cheap and nasty 11lpm combi. But what's the point? You can claim a two bathroom solution from almost any piece of crap just by cutting and pasting the brochures.
On the other hand, it falls way short of a proper storage solution of either stored HW or a sensible capacity thermal store. Therefore you lose out both ways. You are spending more than needed to provide a cosmetic marketing solution but are falling short of doing the job properly.
This is a reasonable conclusion. My point about this product is that the manufacturer obfuscates this information and quotes from the best case conditions.
That would depend on the temperature of the store water, and it is impossible to predict what that would be without quite complex arithmetic.
It may well reach this point in the winter. The boiler can deliver
35W of heat in total. Once the store is depleted, that will go to trying to maintain the 15lpm continuous flow and to some extent to the store. However there is still only supplies 35kW, so either the continuous performance is less than 15lpm or it will take the recovery time from cold to restore it.
A conventional thermal store works because there is adequate capacity to meet all eventualities of use without the store doing a Dubya and getting caught short.
These combined boxes are very limited because there is a compromise between trying to fit everything into one box vs. having enough storage capacity to have reasonable HW performance. Hence the manufacturers obfuscate the true specification.
About the only sensible thing you have said on this thread.
Anything old, antiques and all that, is exactly about making quick bucks. Rennovating to high quality is not. It is about quality and giving the buyers what they want, which is clean modern designs in 90% of cases.
You should read the post properly, theat time is a recovery time, not a bath filling time. The ACV will fill a bath faster than your system. You are the one who claimed it can't be done and would buy one the next day when proven wrong. Have you ordered your ACV yet?
I looked at a megaflow and they were around =A31.5K with all the valves attached, then I would have to buy a top quality boiler around 30 kiloW pushing it up to well over =A32K. I may as well buy a Viessmann, Gledhill or ACV floor mounted combi and save money, hassle and lots of space.
Christian is assuming and assumed wrong. As Christian has pointed out, they are underselling the product. I see no lies or clouding of information, as ACV are a reputable commercial manufacturer. They don't sell to B&Q.
It "never" delivers less than 15 litres per minute at any time, which is great for showers. There is nothing worse than being in a shower and the water runs cold. The 37 minutes recovery is to take it back to delivering two baths simultaneously. As I have pointed out, wait about
8 or 10 minutes and the average bath will be filled in a few minutes. And it also does the CH as well, and of RR stainless steel quality. You are in effect saying a Ravenheat and a cheap Screwfix tank and cylinder is superior. I'm glad I don't take your advise.
I have a few options. a) Fit the next size up of gas meter. The 1" pipe can stay, as a 1" pipe can deliver more than 6 cubic metres as the small domestic meter is restricted to. With a large meter I could fit a combi to do the kitchen and utility room to not rob the Rinnai for flow and pressure. b) Take on IMMs suggestion of having a flow switch in the cold inlet pipe to the Rinnai. This is wired in series in the boiler room thermostat circuit. When the Rinnai makes hot water the CH boiler is switched off. I suppose like a combi sort of thing. As the Rinnai fills baths quickly the CH should not be off for long.
Cost? Rinnai about =A3850 and a Glow Worm combi is about =A3670. A total of =A31520. That is very competitive to fill two baths or run two Tower Shower continuously. And they save space and are easy to fit. It cost about the same using a small system boiler. The combis and system boiler are about the same in cost.
That may well be the case for you running your business. But this is a DIY group, and many DIY because they want the best for
*themselves* - not just what is profitable for a developer to foist upon them.
Not everyone is a blind follower of fashion, thank gawd. So decorating and fitting out your own home only with a view to possible re-sale is a nonsense, because for most by the time it comes to move on everything will be equally as dated. ;-)
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