Semi OT: Why Glyphosate will be banned

[dennis]

On 16/06/2016 13:22, The Natural Philosopher wrote: #

If you actually investigate what you are claiming then you will find that you are mistaken and it doesn't get coughed out.

[The Natural Philosopher]

Darling, that's when asbestosis happens.

In small quantities it does, otherwise I and millions like me who grew up with asbestos and using asbestos, would be dead.

[The Natural Philosopher]

phlegm is not macrophages

The lungs first line of defence is phlegm, that washes the lungs clean and is coughed out. Macrophages take care of the smaller stuff.

Statistical data clearly shows that smoking which destroys the cilia that move the phlegm up the lungs and out is a serious affector of the lungs ability to clear out foreign particles. This has nothing to do with macrophages.

Otherwise you are quite right. Domestic white asbestos is almost completely harmless. Probably less harmful than rock wool and glass fibre.

[Peter Parry]

Safer than what? Known and probable carcinogens on the IARC list include :-

Beer Cider Wine Brandy Chinese liver fluke Diesel Engines Baby Oil Sausages, Spam (and all processed meats). Wood dust Shoe repairing Furniture making Woodwork Household painting Malaria Maliathon (used to control insect carriers of malaria so you are screwed one way or another). Beef (and all other red meat) Frying food Wood burning stoves Hair cutting Shift work

How do you prove anything is unconditionally safe?

[T i m]

I assumed we were talking about the one or even the variant that carried the known risk to human life?

Like I said then. ;-)

Cheers, T i m

[T i m]

It doesn't matter what the quantities are, even one fiber can start a cancer.

All you are offering as your scientific rebuttal is 'luck'.

Cheers, T i m

[Timothy Murphy]

According to there were 3000 deaths from asbestos-related disease in 2014, which is almost twice the death rate in road accidents.

Not a trivial matter, as you suggest.

[Chris Hogg]

Quite. I was responding to Tim, and in particular to the link that he put up, that lumps both types of asbestos together under one umbrella, as do so many articles on the subject.

As you say or imply, coarse matter, whether asbestos, silica dust, coal dust, whatever, gets trapped first in the nose, then further down in the lungs in the trachea etc, and are flushed out by phlegm. It's only the finest particles that find their way into the alveoli and lodge there, that don't get flushed out and which cause problems.

[T i m]

But it doesn't really matter as long as the facts cover the points that are in question does it?

If 10 people a year die from being cut by a broken mirror and 990 by being cut when someone sticks a knife in them, doesn't change the fact that 1000 people have died in a year from being cut?

I thought I read / heard that the sort of asbestos that causes us the most issue is 'barbed' and therefore unlike much of the other 'dust and particles' that may get into our breathing gear?

So do *no* particles (of that type) ever get flushed from the alveoli OOI?

Cheers, T i m

[The Natural Philosopher]

Oh dear, Dennis, Did you actually read that link?

"The latest figures for diseases associated with *occupational* exposure to asbestos many years ago, are summarised in the following table..."

Note that: OCCUPATIONAL exposure. Not 'having an asbestos shed roof'.

"The continuing increase in annual mesothelioma deaths in recent years has been driven mainly by deaths among those aged 75 and above. "

So that's people who worked installing it in buildings more than 30 years ago in all probability.

Who were probably smokers, and who probably were occupationally expose to the more dangerous form,s.

And 75 is an age when a lot of people are dying anyway. I've already had two life threatening illnesses and I have a decade to go to that anyway.

[dennis]

Do try and be sensible, you can have asbestos in the lungs and not have asbestosis.

[Chris Hogg]

I doubt that they're barbed, in the sense that a fish hook or an arrow head is barbed, but I also doubt that their surfaces are polished smooth. There will be small irregularities, up and down, along the surface, corresponding to variations in fibre thickness due to varying layers of the crystal lattice, just as there are on the surfaces of all crystalline solids when you get down to the sub-micron scale, but I'd hardy call them barbs. AIUI it's as much due to the length of the fibres that they get stuck, a bit like an eel in an eel trap I imagine. This image of alveoli

shows them to have narrow entrances, rather supporting my eel-trap suggestion.

No idea, but the existence of other lung diseases such as silicosis or other forms of pneumoconiosis suggests that a lot of particles don't get flushed once they're in there.

[Chris Hogg]

On Thu, 16 Jun 2016 19:50:34 +0100, Chris Hogg wrote: I should just add that I'm not an expert in this field. The mining company I used to work for were major suppliers of white minerals to the paper, ceramics, paint, rubber, plastics and pharmaceutical industries, world-wide. As many of their mineral products were in the sub-five-micron particle size region, they had an interest in these things and commissioned a number of studies IIRC. I shared an office with a chap who was closely involved, so some of the information rubbed off. But that was at least thirty years ago and medical science has come a long way since then. I'm sure there is a much better understanding of these things now than was available then.

[T i m]

So again confirming that they can't be 'coughed out' and therefore the chances of the person dying from even small levels of contamination 'could' be high (certainly higher than without)?

Cheers, T i m

[tony sayer]

In article , Peter Parry scribeth thus

Hair cutting?...

How the hell is that dangerous?...

[Chris Hogg]

It's only the finest particles that get as far as the alveoli and it's only a small proportion of the total asbestos dust burden that is sufficiently fine. All the larger stuff gets flushed out in phlegm, 'coughed out', if you like. But there are plenty of accounts of people developing mesothelioma after what can only be minimal exposure.

Clearly, it doesn't take much.

[Tim Streater]

Then you would ban knives but not mirrors. Because mirrors are useful, you don't ban them.

You shouldn't lump together things that are different, just because they happen to be called the same.

(This is all a poor analogy because in real life, so are knives).

[T i m]

Yup, 'passive asbestosis'.

Yes, that was my point ... it only needs one bit that you can't 'cough up' ... even if it only came off your dad's coat. ;-(

Cheers, T i m

[T i m]

Nothing said about banning anything but (not) discounting something because it wasn't at the top of the stats.

No, but again, 'most people' wouldn't consider the 'non dangerous' versions when it came to 'risks' and 'asbestos'. Like, 'most people' aren't frightened of knives, just the ones someone else wants to stick in you.

It didn't work because I think it missed the point. ;-)

All I was doing is countering the comment from TNP:

"As with Radon, the evidence is more that until the bodies natural defences get overwhelmed - usually with smoking - and you cant cough it out, it's actually not very harmful.

Because it does get coughed out."

It, the asbestos that kills someone, isn't coughed out and it can be a very high risk (even to the point of dying to passive exposure).

Cheers, T i m

[Tim Streater]

The blue/green stuff, yes.