RIP: Sir Roger Scruton

Died age 75,of cancer.
“It is not the truth of Marxism that explains the willingness of intellectuals to believe it, but the power that it confers on
intellectuals, in their attempts to control the world. And since...it is futile to reason someone out of a thing that he was not reasoned into, we can conclude that Marxism owes its remarkable power to survive every criticism to the fact that it is not a truth-directed but a power-directed system of thought.”
Sir Roger Scruton
--
"When one man dies it's a tragedy. When thousands die it's statistics."

Josef Stalin
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That’s overstated. Its just as true of other beliefs that are not reasoned into like religion. That one is much more about crutches for pathetically inadequate minds.
Sane with royalty, it isnt really about power for the believers.
Or the greenies either.

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On Mon, 13 Jan 2020 04:20:07 +0000, The Natural Philosopher
"it is futile to reason someone out of a thing that he was not reasoned into"
A bit like Brexit then.
'Most people', didn't vote for us to join the EEC / EU / whatever and so have lived with it as one of those things.
So, give them the idea that something that was mostly transparent / irrelevant to them was the big bad wolf, and that things are going to get worse because of what they are intending to do or how better off we will be if we kill the big bad wolf (and mud / fud sticks), some of the great unwashed will fall for that sort of thing, pick their side and can't be reasoned into justifying their choice.
They can't in most cases because there is no 'reasoned' reason, just a load of crystal ball predictions, gullibility and 'beliefs'. ;-(
I'm not suggesting that leaving the EU might not actually be a good thing for 'most people', all I'm suggesting is that most of us who are adamant it will be have yet to convince most who haven't heard those voices in their hears or believed what has now been mostly proven to be lies and FUD in the first place.
Further complicate the facts by promising the great unwashed that they promise to act on what should have only been an advisory poll and you can pretty well wave goodbye to any level of real democracy.
Cheers, T i m
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On 13/01/2020 08:34, T i m wrote:

Only up to 2016, when voters rejected the option of staying in the EU.
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Spike

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On 13/01/2020 08:34, T i m wrote:

You really need to get something new to obsess about...
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Cheers,

John.
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On 13/01/2020 15:47, John Rumm wrote:

I really wish you'd put an explicit "in place of" on that :(
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Robin
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No, T r o l l simply needs to STFU and get his VD seen to.
--
"That excessive bail ought not to be required, nor excessive fines imposed,
nor cruel and unusual punishments inflicted" -- Bill of Rights 1689
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On Mon, 13 Jan 2020 15:47:13 +0000, John Rumm

I'm surprised at you John, normally a beacon of reason being so much against real democracy?
But it seems like fanatically voting leave has the same impact on peoples reason as cat ownership! ;-)
But hey, you won (although that may turn out to be a strange interpretation of the word 'win') and you of all people should be able to killfile me if you really can't stand me continuing to have strong having feelings on the matter?
But this seems to be the MO fanatic brexiteers (you can see from even this sub thread how it brings all the real trolls out) ... ranting and foaming rather than just letting the 1/3rd of the electorate who voted to remain and the other 1/3rd who didn't vote at all just why they were so wrong to not vote as you / they did?
You would have thought that 3+ years on it would have all been made pretty clear by now and 100%[1] of the electorate would be behind it?
Or is it that you realise you have got away with something you really shouldn't and are frightened enough of the great unwashed will also cotton onto that?
Cheers, T i m
[1], Well, for the left brainers we know that 100% would be highly unrealistic so a more utilitarian threshold would be required.
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On Mon, 13 Jan 2020 19:39:37 +0000 (GMT+00:00), Jimk

Oh Jimmy, you *are* oh-so-funny!
By 'the rest' you mean the other left brained fanatic Leave voters//////chancers here?
Oh, what's that, you thought your views represented the majority of people (let alone the electorate) in the Country ... ;-(
Aww bless ...
Cheers, T i m
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OK I'm afully sorry about that, but who was he? Brian
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On Mon, 13 Jan 2020 09:13:27 -0000, "Brian Gaff \(Sofa 2\)"

A great man. A very noteworthy conservative philosopher, Brian.
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No deal? No problem! :-D

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"Conservatism starts from a sentiment that all mature people can readily share: the sentiment that good things are easily destroyed, but not easily created. This is especially true of the good things that come to us as collective assets: peace, freedom, law, civility, public spirit, the security of property and family life, in all of which we depend on the cooperation of others while having no means singlehandedly to obtain it. In respect of such things, the work of destruction is quick, easy, and exhilarating; the work of creation slow, laborious, and dull. That is one of the lessons of the twentieth century. It is also one of the reasons why conservatives suffer such a disadvantage when it comes to public opinion. Their position is true but boring, that of the opponents exciting but false."
Sir Roger Scruton
--
"Please stop telling us what you feel. Please stop telling us what your
intuition is. Your intuitive feelings are of no interest whatsoever,
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Cobblers.
--
Max

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On 13/01/2020 12:11, Maxwell Boltzmann wrote:

You have just demonstrated it to be fact
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The theory of Communism may be summed up in one sentence: Abolish all
private property.
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How d'you work that out? :)
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Max

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On 13/01/2020 15:36, Maxwell Boltzmann wrote:

"Cobblers" is not a reasoned response. Ergo someone using it in this context is proof of Scruton's thesis.
You are simply an example of what he was talking about.
The typical kneejerk denialism of the Left, when faced with any challenge to their worldview.
--
Truth welcomes investigation because truth knows investigation will lead
to converts. It is deception that uses all the other techniques.
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Cobblers.
--
Max

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posted

Yes, it’s a succinct statement of disagreement.

No it is not. Scuton's claim is that it is futile to try to reason someone out of something that was not reasoned into. That is just plain wrong with some of the ways that some get into a thing, most obvious when its just accepted because its your parent's position. It isnt futile to reason someone out of that.

No he is not.

He isnt even of the Left.

That isnt even a challenge to his world view.
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posted

No he has not.
There are plenty of examples of people who have accepted something and have not been reasoned into that, who have been reasoned out of it. Most obviously with those who have accepted something that their parent have instilled into them who have later been reasoned out of that,
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On 13/01/2020 04:20, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

Utter nonsense from Sir Roger Screwtape there.
The reason Marxism is such an enduring set of ideas is only that it provides a model and a language for describing historical changes that continues to be true and useful. For anyone who doesn't know it, in the simplest terms Marx's fundamental idea was that the primary thing that drives history on, that changes society, that creates the irresistible currents that we are all subject to and that it is vain to resist is not religion or God, not wars and armies, not great men of destiny, not ideas, not compassion, not darwinian struggle, not any of those secondary factors but economics. It's about wealth and the way that wealth is created. It's how we all see the world whether we think we are marxists or not, and stupid of TNP and a dumb second rate lecturer to imagine otherwise.
TW
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