Recommendations for a SELF PRIMING (not a submersible!) cellar pump.

Apr 09, 2018 51 Replies

On Sunday afternoon, when looking in our basement for some (250mL)



15W-40 engine oil to prep up a 1K2W inverter genset I'd bought from our local Lidl for 99 quid a couple of hours earlier, I discovered the coal hole section had become somewhat flooded and threatening to flood the main part of the basement.

A look for the repurposed W/M drain pump on a piece of plywood that I had used the last time this had happened over quarter of a century back failed to reveal my makeshift solution to a problem I'd thought I'd well and truly sorted out just a year or two after cobbling said emergency cellar pump so I landed up having to resort to bailing it out into a plastic bucket and hauling each bucket's worth up the steep stone steps to hand to my XYL to tip out onto the drive.



Needless to say, this was rather exhausting work so I only lowered the level by an inch or so to provide some respite against the rest of the basement floor transitioning from being merely damp to becoming actually submerged.



A few hours later, in the evening, our son finally emerged from his 'sick bed' (he was suffering from a cold of some sort - he didn't look particularly ill to me but looks, as I well know, can be deceiving) and offered to help bail out the basement using his "Wickes Wet 'n' Dry" 20L vacuum cleaner which he'd parked in the drier part of the basement (and which I hadn't realised was a "wet 'n' dry" cleaner).



Inconveniently, his offer of help, as per usual, was badly timed since I was nicely settled in front of my PC monitor, watching the last 45 minutes of E4's "Night at The Museum" evening movie by way of recuperation so I left him to deal with it, or not, on his own. He chose not to wait so dealt with it on his own. After the movie was finished I checked out his handiwork. The coal hole level was down to a few inch deep puddles which needed further attention (the level had risen by a half inch or so since he'd last vacuumed up the water about half an hour earlier).



At this point, I needed him to explain the 'wet' usage of his old Wickes wet 'n' dry cleaner so I could pump the sump dry. The sump consists of a



75mm plastic pipe concreted in place over a gravel filled sump hole at the far end of the coal hole that I'd put in place over 25 years ago for just such an eventuality. It had been hidden from his view by a stack of heavy duty cardboard tray boxes. I managed to pump out another 60 litres or so which he obligingly dumped each 20L canister's worth onto the driveway saving me the 3 or 4 trips up our basement stairway.

This morning, the level had actually dropped a half inch from where it had risen to some 3 hours after that last pumping out session when I checked it just after midnight. I managed to pump another 30 or so litres from the sump this time round suggesting that the local water table is actually returning back to normality after Saturday's "Monsoon Downpour" (according to my XYL - I never noticed such an event beyond the day being a bit wet and rainy).



I guess the problem must have been due to abnormally high rainfall after all rather than a failure in any of our waste water plumbing or roof drainage so it looks like I really do need to fit an automatic sump pump to complete the original project that I'd put on hold after completing the initial speculative provision of a sump pick up point over quarter of a century ago.



My problem at the moment is the total and utter failure of internet search engines to find a local supplier of suitable cost effective *self priming* sump pumps that don't rely on being submersible to function as such[1]. I want a pump that I can hang onto the wall (or park on a shelf) that will allow me to poke its inlet hose down the sump standpipe and route the outlet hose through a hole in the wall onto the driveway to pump some 20Lpm against a total of 3 to 5 metres maximum head of water pressure.



I'm willing to shell out up to 100 quid on a neat, all-in-one readymade solution but considering the effectiveness of that sub 50 quid wet 'n' dry vacuum cleaner at extracting the water from the sump standpipe, I'm half entertaining DIYing my own Franken-solution of adding a W/M pump to the wet 'n' dry vacuum cleaner along with, if necessary, some electronic switching logic to do the job "for free" (my son was quite willing to 'sacrifice' his old Wickes vacuum cleaner to the current task even if it meant it 'blowing up' as a result of such 'abuse').



The reason why I'm only "half entertaining" such a DIY project is that it would be more by way of metaphorically sticking two fingers up at "The cellar sump pump industry" for being such a bunch of cunts in failing to provide the obvious no brainer solution to my current problem since it would absorb a considerable portion of my free time and energy (basically, I'm a lazy sod).



Since I've reached the end of my tether in 'googling' a solution (source of a suitable self priming sump pump), I thought I'd prevail upon the potential source of collective wisdom and experience of this group for advice.



[1] Although I'm rather loath to dig out my sump standpipe, if needs must, I would but, of the bunch of potential 'submersible' pumps on page
121 of the Toolstation catalogue, it worries me a little as to what the description "Not suitable... for permanent installation." implies about each and every one of these pumps. Do they mean, "Don't chop the 13A plug off and wire into an FCU." or does it mean they're simply not able to withstand being sat in a puddle of water indefinitely in between pumping sessions?

You could use a boat 'dirty water' pump, they self prime to a meter or so. E.g.:-

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This is just the first one I could find, I bought one a couple of years ago for just over £50.

A small 12 volt boat bilge pump would go down your existing 75 mm sump pipe. I guess you could suspend it either above or below the "steady state" water level. Then have it switched on by a suitable float switch.

Also, there are plenty of cheap "damp" alarms on ebay, I've just bought one to fit into a friend's condensate drain to give him early audible warning of a frozen outlet.

Yes! Bought one of these for a one off job a few months ago worked very well and I expect you could use it there you can buy either type of flat or wire reinforced hose and various diameters for flow rates etc ..

Might need a more sophisticated on off pump switch but i expect you could modify the fitted one if need be...

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Hmm, submersible, not self priming and only clean water. I doubt if its what's wanted.

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Lots of permanently submersible pumps with various duty cycles at:

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Not sure that they are very cheap, but I have found them reliable and helpful.

PS, I don't know the base area of your sump, but for the lever floats to work you need quite a big area *and* a way of stopping the pump walking about on the base. I used a nice stainless steel Grundfos one with a float in a tube, Grundfos Unilift KP 150-AV-1, which cost about four times your max. But then I wanted our shower to work without fail daily for many years, so I think I was justifed. There are probably good quality ones, possibly plastic, which would be cheaper. My concern, especially if the sump gets some water in it without actually reaching the pumping level that gunge would build up and block the float, and I would advise at least monthly tests with a hose pipe.

The problem here is that I'd need to invest in a heavy duty 12v PSU for a pump with a macerator feature I just don't need. I did try further searching for self priming bilge pumps but I hit the same 12/24v PSU problem.

The problem when searching for such tightly specified requirements is that you tend to land up on manufacturers' websites rather than UK suppliers' web sites and what few retailer sites you do find, they're all American (or show dollar prices - same thing).

I've tried searching again and even the submersibles seem to be rather s*it, especially those that rely on a cable linked float tilt switch which require an oversized sump hole to accommodate their range of movement. It looks more and more like my Franken-solution of vac with W/M pump will be a better solution for my current setup. :-(

On 09/04/2018 19:13, Johnny B Good wrote: ce.

Just replaced a 5 year old Draper dirty water pump (as per Toolstation pg 121) that has spent 5 years stood in a puddle of water. However the amount of water this on has pumped out is quite a bit. It took 3 days non stop pumping to clear the last lot of rain water.

Most, if not all, submersible pumps are self-priming. It is of course important that they don't switch on until sufficiently submerged, but that is why it has float switch. I forget to mention in my other posts about them that it may be important to check the attainable head, this one is 8m which should be suitable for the OP. Some can cope with debris up to the size of the water inlet slots, and this may be important if the sump lining is imperfect.

That's a no, no afaiac simply on account of the need for a hefty 12v power supply.

I think I could homebrew my own float switch, possibly from W/M water level sensors if not an actual float operating a microswitch. However, I've since seen other references about "Not suitable for permanent installation." where they clearly mean not suited for continuous operation as pond pumps. Considering their most common sump pump usage, that's a surprising way to describe their unsuitability for continuous pond recirculation duty when you don't want to put prospective sump pump purchasers off.

I noticed that Screwfix are selling a Titan submersible pump, complete with the same ridiculous float switch dangling off the end of a mains flex which requires the diameter of the sump to be double that of the pump body itself simply to accommodate its range of movement. The attraction in this case being its low price of 40 quid.

If I *have* to dig out my rather neat sump standpipe, then it might as well be for this pump than for its more expensive but equally pathetically designed automatic float switch operation models. I'm hoping my experiment with W/M pump and wet 'n' dry vac succeeds. My Franken- solution looks an ever more elegant option each time I search for a suitably priced sump pump. A single W/M pump might not be sufficient but given a free supply, suitable hose and jubilee clips, I'm sure I can cascade enough of them to do the job. :-)

Thanks for the link. It's pretty much the same as the 40 quid Titan submersible currently on offer in Screwfix - same stupid float switch on a flex idea. If I can't homebrew a better solution with a wet 'n' dry vac and a seperate pump (possibly 2 or 3 W/M pumps in cascade), then it looks like I'm going to have to destroy my rather neat sump standpipe setup and install a cheap Titan pump.

That's just a piss poor description against their use as permanently running pond recirculation pumps.

How about this one? Float needs little area and is protected. Perhaps marginal 5m head.

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This one is cheaper and has 6.9m head but the float is less well protected, would need the pump to be fixed by either rigid pipe or perhaps tied to the wall of sump.

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May well be similar around, try "tube floatswitch" as a search term.

Thanks for that info. I've since come to realise that it was a s*it description against using them as continuously running pond recirculation pumps. :-(

Some models advise allowing a ten minute rest per hour's worth of run time so you need to check out their specifications in detail to make sure you don't fall foul of their warranty's Ts & Cs.

If I do manage to find my emergency pump (I've got an idea where I dossed it away some 25 years ago), I'll run some tests before adapting it to the vac. There's no sense in destroying a perfectly good wet 'n' dry vac if the project is doomed from the start.

If I can't get enough head from the one pump, cascading another W/M pump or two might solve that problem (assuming I can scavenge them from scrapped washing machines) or else I might do better to use a dishwasher pump instead - I think they're a more powerful pump considering that they provide the necessary energy to rotate the spray arms and jet wash the dishes.

However, I'm coming to the conclusion that I'm going to land up doing what everyone else in my position has had to do and dig out a pump sized sump hole to chuck a cheap 'n' cheerful submersible pump into. :-(

If you do need a high power 12V supply, look at server power supplies on eBay. Power outputs of 5000W to over 1kW at 12V can be bought for a reasonable price. John

What head will the wet-n-dry suck?

If it is sufficient, you could use it to suck water up to the outside drain level, do so until the tub is full, turn off the wet-n-dry, open a drain in the tub, let the tub empty down a suitable hose, close drain, repeat. Before discussing the best OS for the control system it would be good to know if the head is sufficient, and if it is possible with the building constraints....

Thomas Prufer

The 12v output of a (cheap) PC power supply would probably handle it.

We had problems with our cellar flooding when the water table is high - usually 2 or 3 days after a deluge (it drained off a plain to the north of us which was riddled with gravel extraction pits and took its time to reach us!)

The first couple of times, I hired a pump from a tool hire place but, when the only one they had on one occasion wouldn't pump below about 18mm, finally bit the bullet and bought a Hippo.

Self priming, pumps to within 3mm of the floor and can be left running after the water has all gone without damage. No float switch so has to be manually operated.

There was a slight dip at one point in the cellar floor which made it the ideal place to site the pump. The old coal hole was only a few feet away and the cover had a convenient bar running across the underside so I put a couple to tie-wraps together to anchor the hose pipe to (I originally used rope but after about 15 years it disintegrated!) The mains cable was hung on a nail just inside the cellar door.

My wife kept vegetables in the cellar so was usually the first to notice the water rising so the plan of action was to wait for the water to get near the cellar stairs (slight upward slope) at which point it was worthwhile running the pump. Open coal hole and lift out the hose, the cast iron lid ensuring that it didn't try and get back down the hole again, open cellar door, remove mains lead and plug into socket in the hallway.

Observe hose at intervals until flow dropped to a trickle, then leave a little longer. When finally finished, unplug pump, replace mains lead on nail a refit coal hole lid. Finished!

This looks like the pump:

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pump/

or:

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although mine didn't come with a 'pump mud pack'.

It cost me about £10 - £15 more than that in B & Q about 35 or so years ago, so a bargain at today's price when taking inflation into consideration.

It sat in our cellar for 35 years until our recent move - never let us down and seems good for another 35 years (but we no longer have a cellar!)

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