Re: OT: Why you should not use Windows : issue 1

On Fri, 8 Jan 2016 12:48:12 +0000, The Natural Philosopher
I'm not sure we all do and some (most) don't know but don't care either, even if it was.

But whilst that popularity has come about to some degree simply 'because' <list of things like it's often pre-installed>, for people to find an alternative they have to have the need to look somewhere else.
The *only* real alternative for most people is OSX and for the same people that is often perfectly ok (or better, depending on their needs).

And the lack of a real need to see out alternatives (or we would all be running OSX, and we aren't).

You wouldn't need anything to attract women ... admitting to being a 'Linux geek' should be enough. ;-)
Cheers, T i m
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Robert X. Cringely (yes, really) wrote a book called Accidental Empires which details how all that happened. It takes the piss out of Jobs and Gates as well - the subtitle is "how the boys of silicon valley made their millions and still couldn't get a date".
A good read if you want to understand the early days of Silicon Valley and how billg made his millions from the piece of shit that is Windows.
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http://www.theregister.co.uk/2015/12/15/windows_xp_royal_navy/
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[96 lines snipped]

Every financial institution is rammed with *nix machines. Just not on the desktop.
[4 lines snipped]

Nope. Corporates don't allow their users admin access to their machines, anti-virus is up to date and the machines aren't allowed to talk directly to the Internet. At least in any corporate where they know what they're doing.
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On 07/01/2016 22:06, Huge wrote:

And a few mainframes too in the older ones :-)
But the barrel is still there for corporate desktop.
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On Thu, 07 Jan 2016 21:38:11 +0000, Clive George

And that's the bottom line on all this isn't, the ability (interest?) to try to make sense of stuff *and* the (ideally not) 'going off on one'.
I thought we were all mates here (well, as much as any disparate group of nutters could be) and it's 'all done in the best possible taste'? ;-)
I don't 'hate Linux' in just the same way I don't 'Love' Windows, it's just atm, I can't get, or Linux won't do, many of the things I (personally) want to do.
This Ricoh printer is a classic example of the sort of failing I see over and over.
So, I'm *given* a fairly new printer by a mate (he got fed up with it not being online when he needed it so got something else). I therefore don't have much choice in the 'what' or it's compatibility with any OS. I knew it was Windows compatible because that was what my mate was using and I looked online and also saw drivers and utilities for OSX.
So, the first thing I did when I got it was reset it to factory defaults (then I have a known starting point) and found it on my Lan (from W10) with an ip scanner I could have checked the printer panel but it's upstairs and I'm not <g>).
I then used the Windows utility to upgrade the firmware (from W10 and using the ip address, over the LAN). Ricoh offered an OSX version that I didn't try. No Linux version that I could see so I have no idea how you could upgrade the firmware with Linux.
W10 couldn't find the printer on its own and didn't offer a specific driver when I gave it the ip address. However, it did offer a list of Ricoh drivers and possibly the one for that specific printer but I'd already downloaded the one for my printer for W10 32 bit from the Ricoh site and told W10 to use that. I then installed the scanner driver / until found the printer on it's own and I scanned over the LAN.
Then I rebooted into Ubuntu 14.04 and opened the printer app. I clicked Add and 'Network Printer' and it found the printer Automagically. It then didn't have the specific model so I chose the nearest match and a test print came out ok. I've yet to make sure it can use the duplexer but I have my fingers crossed.
I opened 'Simple Scan' but ignoring the fact that it seems to lock up, I'm not sure how I could tell it to use the Network Printer-scanner, (or any specific scanner) even if I wanted it to?
Is there a more capable scanner package that I could try do you know please (anyone)?
As it happens, it doesn't really matter if it isn't supported but would be a(nother) deal breaker if I actually wanted to make Linux my daily desktop?
Cheers, T i m
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On 07/01/2016 22:45, T i m wrote:

I think you're assuming a bit too much friendliness. Usenet is the home of some pretty deep spats. OS advocacy has always been a good source of that.
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On Thu, 07 Jan 2016 23:15:02 +0000, Clive George

;-(

Oh indeed, and none moreso (from my experience so far) than in the Linux n/gs.

Yes, you are right, it definitely seems to bring the whole 'tribal / gang' mentality out in some.
And whilst I'm sure there must (will) be some fanatics in the Windows n/gs (I say that because I've never had need to use them myself, not needing help nor being a Windows advocate etc), in most cases I believe most Windows users (especially the non-technical ones), really CGAF about the 'OS' on their computers, wanting it to be as transparent > invisible as possible.
It's only once you get to those solutions that are considered as 'alternatives' (to Windows), like OSX and Linux, do you generally se this defensive attitude rearing it's ugly head.
But then I guess some of that is to be expected ... just like any minority they must get fed up being (as they see it as 'picked on') when they could probably avoid most of it by addressing the genuine issues people raise (or at least accepting them honestly) and then trying to find a solution, or at least a 'work-round'.
To be fair I'm nearly as happy with an honest 'it doesn't work on <OS brand>' as at least I then know it's just not me or some faulty hardware. ;-)
Cheers, T i m
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On 07/01/2016 23:25, T i m wrote:

I've worked with some extreme windows advocates, and it's alternately painful and amusing.

No, it's about the people. The same attitudes come from all over.

I'm not entirely sure why you're expecting TNP to solve your driver problems in this thread. Obviously there is one option available to you under Linux which will be harder on the other OS's - write your own. But TBH unless you really want/need it to work on that particular OS/hardware, there have to be better things to do with your life than trying to force it into going. Even TNP runs some software under windows.
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On 08/01/16 00:04, Clive George wrote:

well exactly. I use Linux for as much as possible, because its just safer and better, but if I have to use the dreaded Microsnot, I get a box of tissues and blow hard.
I wasted many years looking after Windows, its a relief not to have to deal with it.
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On Fri, 08 Jan 2016 00:04:35 +0000, Clive George
<snip good stuff>

I'm not. It's more a challenge / example of the very thing he constantly denies exists (ordinary people trying to use Linux).

That's not an opportunity open to me of course (on any OS). ;-)

I know, it was just an real life, right now example of why Linux isn't what the likes of TNP insist it is, not for the non Linux geek especially.
If he hadn't repeatedly called me a liar and accused me of making stuff up (like if he had been normal / reasonable / honest I mean), then I wouldn't be challenging him (to put up or shut up) like I am now.
He insists that he has never had any issues installing stuff or running stuff on Linux. Maybe he only uses it as a typewriter. ;-)

Quite. ;-)
Cheers, T i m
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On 08/01/16 10:27, T i m wrote:

Really in a sense that is true. Like many users all I generally do is write - blogs, usenet, emails and code. So yes, it is a glorified typewriter, a bit of a TV set, and occasionally something I use to compile code on. It runs skype as well, I have some games I play..very normal user in fact. I edit pictures and videos a bit, and rip DVDs for my online library.
And apart from compiling code, I don't go near the command line.

The point being that actually, I don't, I run it using Virtualbox/XP or wine under Linux So it cant crash or infect my whole computer.
And all that proves, is that the world hasn't caught up with linux yet.
Not that windows is 'better'
IN the end your argument boils down to 'I have stuff that only works on windows so I run windows' and mine boils down to 'I have stuff that only runs on windows, So I run linux with Wine and XP in a VM, because its a far better experience than native windows'.

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On Fri, 8 Jan 2016 12:45:48 +0000, The Natural Philosopher

I guessed. ;-)

Exactly, little of which (excepting say a webcam for Skype or the drivers for the TV card, both of which I have got and installed on Linux <g>) involves interfacing external stuff, like 3D printers or GPS's, OBD diagnostic tools, Endoscopes etc etc.

And it seems I'm having to go near the CLI more than anyone only using Linux as a typewriter / web-terminal (and why I have been having 'more' issues than most). I have also possibly installed, or tried to install Linux on more machines than most, as I go to try it on any hardware I'm testing.

No, the 'point is' you are actually running XP, be it on a VM or not, because you *have to* to get the Windows programs you *need* running. I'll give you that with WINE it's not quite as much of Windows as Windows in a VM. ;-)

No, you are back to the tail wagging the dog. For people to want Linux (on the desktop) it has to offer ordinary people a better and as-complete experience than all the alternatives. What is a bit of a shame is there may well be plenty of people who could be happier running Linux who have simply never even heard of it.
Everyone who has met me has heard of it and many have seen it running (because of me). ;-)

Never said that (in general). I might be considered 'better' (than Linux specifically here) by the many million (billions) of people who do like and use iTunes (for example).

Alongside Linux, OSX and Android, yes.

Yes, but the strange thing is at the same time as *having* to run Windows to do some of the things you need and want to do, you diss it?
That comes across as a bit strange to me. Ok, I'm not saying you should love it (it's just an OS after all) but you cannot deny that it serves a purpose for you and it would be difficult to do without.
No one holds that against you BTW, (many of us use multiple OS's for their own advantages) but we don't generally diss one that we rely on?
Cheers, T i m
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On 08/01/16 15:00, T i m wrote:

Good grief. Its you that are strange. If I have to walk through mud in my gumboots to take the dog for a walk, and I hate the mud because it sticks to my boots, is it that strange?
Windows may be a necessary evil, but that doesn't make it a good.
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On Fri, 8 Jan 2016 15:17:37 +0000, The Natural Philosopher

No, but having use of a footbridge, even though you are afraid of heights and doing so lessened the chance of you getting your feet wet or not crossing the river (then moaning about having to cross using a bridge or dissing 'bridges') is more like what you are actually doing.

Never said it was (or that you should say it was). Did you know there were other colours that black and white? ;-)
Cheers T i m
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On 08/01/16 15:53, T i m wrote:

yes you did. So more lies, more trolling

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On Fri, 8 Jan 2016 18:15:57 +0000, The Natural Philosopher

Cite or apologise.

You need help.
Cheers, T i m
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On 07/01/16 23:15, Clive George wrote:

alt,barney,die,die.die, redirected to alt.flame...
waht use is yusent if yiu cant be politicalkly incorrect|?>
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Ignoring for the moment that you have misunderstood the scenario, you are also completely wrong about financial services not employing Linux geeks. They are full of Linux/Unix geeks. Windows is used for desktops and some applications, but the Enterprise infrastructure and all large apps run on Linux/Unix.
OSX is irrelevant since Apple exited the server space many years ago, although a significant percentage of geeks do choose to use Macbooks for their own portable computing requirements.
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On Thu, 7 Jan 2016 21:27:50 -0000 (UTC), snipped-for-privacy@cucumber.demon.co.uk (Andrew Gabriel) wrote:

Thanks. ;-)

I'm not wrong because I assumed that to be the case (all you say). I was joking remember (even if I miss read the table etc).

Ok.

Yes, and I know that as well, especially so since Apple went Intel and said Geeks could then also run Windows natively. ;-)
I know many that have told me such and did so myself with my (3) Intel Minis.
Cheers, T i m
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