Part P (again)

On Tue, 23 Nov 2004 14:19:02 +0000, Steve Jones

You can because they are considered to be a minor work.
Whether or not this makes any sense is another issue.
As far as I am concerned, If somebody is competent (or not) to add a spur or socket then I see no real reason why they can't add a circuit from the competence perspective.
It's just as easy to get into trouble installing a spur as it is a circuit.
For example, cable of inadequate size could be used, or people could add a spur to the end of a spur from a ring circuit.
Exempting equipotential bonding is curious as well. It's an imprtant safety mechanism and should also be tested.
The exemptions seem much more arbitrary than considered, especially when there isn't a problem to address in the first place.
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.andy

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Well this is good news, Part P doesn't seem so restrictive after all. I was under the impression that changing cracked socket/light/ceiling fittings was about all you could do.
> The exemptions seem much more arbitrary than considered, especially > when there isn't a problem to address in the first place.
Should we have expected anything else!
Steve
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On Tue, 23 Nov 2004 14:52:43 +0000, Steve Jones

It;s better, but not usefully better.
If you're an idiot you can still get into trouble and if you are competent, it's stupidly restrictive.
Now where was my hunting horn?
--

.andy

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wrote:

circuit;
This does not have to be connected to the electrical system.

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It is part of the electrical system in that if absent there is an increased risk of shock and other issues.
Just because something is not normally current carrying doesn't mean that it's unimportant.
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.andy

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Isn't this so that plumbers don't need to jump through the hoops when doing pipework that needs earthing ?
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wrote:

Possibly. There is a new mediaeval guild/income tax net for plumbers.
My point was really that service and equipotential bonding is an important safety feature so it is surprising that it is exempted.
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.andy

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Since when did Part P have anything to do with safety ?
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doing pipework that needs

In reality, never. As a weak justification for the formalisation of an exclusive guild structure for electrical businesses with a vested interest, since day one.
Cheers Clive
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Quite.
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.sigmonster on vacation



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Andy Hall wrote:

From the link you gave Andy it states:
DESCRIPTIONS OF WORK WHERE NO BUILDING NOTICE OR DEPOSIT OF FULL PLANS REQUIRED
Work which -
(a) is not in a kitchen, or a special location,
(b) does not involve work on a special installation, and
(c) consists of -
(i) adding light fittings and switches to an existing circuit;
(ii) adding socket outlets and fused spurs to an existing ring or radial circuit; or
(iii) installing or upgrading main or supplementary equipotential bonding.
I thought adding new socket outlets and spurs was not allowed under the new regs, but this says otherwise. Except for a kitchen.
Steve
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wrote:

DIY
Thanks Andy.
Having taken a look at this, Part P and other postings, I am now sure it is wrong.
Further, it now seems clear to me that **all** domestic electrical works are covered by Building Regs.
The exemptions appear to be about notification, not about whether it is covered by the Regs or not. The title of Schedule 2B is "DESCRIPTIONS OF WORK WHERE NO BUILDING NOTICE OR DEPOSIT OF FULL PLANS REQUIRED"
The only exempt works are described in the "Limits of Application" column of amendments to Schedule 1 - i.e.: <quote> The requirements of this Part apply only to electrical installations that are intended to operate at low or extra-low voltage and are -
(a) in a dwelling;
(b) in the common parts of a building serving one or more dwellings, but excluding power supplies to lifts;
(c) in a building that receives its electricity from a source located within or shared with a dwelling; and
(d) in a garden or in or on land associated with a building where the electricity is from a source located within or shared with a dwelling. </quote>
Everything else is covered by the regs, but not all works require notification.
The Part P Approved Document seems to take that view. From section 0.8 <quote> When the non-notifiable work described in Table 1 [i.e Schedule 2B] is to be undertaken by a DIY worker, a way of showing compliance would be to follow the IEE guidance or guidance in other authoritative manuals that are based on this, and to have a competent person inspect and test the work and supply a Minor Electrical Installation Works Certificate. The competent person need not necessarily be registered with an electrical self-certification scheme but, as required by BS 7671, must be competent in respect of the inspection and testing of an installation </quote>
Note the use of the word "compliance". The regs apply even for minor DIY.So if we don't want to get a certified "professional" to check our stuff, we will have to do ourselves certificates !
"coherers"
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On Tue, 23 Nov 2004 15:29:30 GMT, "coherers"

This is as I understand it, but do remember that the Approved Documents do not have the force of law - they are simply a guideline.
So the quote above can be nothing more than a recommendation, and is in effect the status quo today.

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.andy

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wrote:

DIY.So
Right - there is a tendency for the Approved documents to "extend" the law, which really irritates me 'cos there are enough real regulations without f***head's office inventing them

There is one big change in the status quo. Currently, if we add a socket and skimp on the inspection/testing, we may end on the wrong side of the civil law. After 1st Jan, if we do anything which doesn't comply with regs, we could end up with a criminal record ( s35, Building Act 1984).
Ditto for the professionals though, which might be the silver lining....
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On Tue, 23 Nov 2004 17:10:41 GMT, "coherers"

True. Although I suspect in reality that the whole thing will end up being a white elephant anyway.
Our resident ex and current BCOs might like to comment here, but it seems to me that the only time where violations of building control are likely to be detected are
a) If they are visible from the exterior of the house - e.g. an extension
b) The neighbours shop the householder
c) Something bad happens
d) The property is sold.
For wiring, a) and b) are unlikely if it is the only work - of course if it's part of something else then that's a bigger issue and the person is already in violation of other parts anyway.
c) is possible, but we know that the number of bad things like fires and shocks attributable to fixed wiring are small. Since this regulation allows spurs to be fitted uncontrolled, it does not protect the MP's electrocuted daughter if the cooker hood wiring was to a spur, except in so far that it was in a kitchen and therefore controlled. I see no logical reason why the same thing with a different appliance couldn't have happened in another room.
In case d) what would happen? The purchaser has a survey and the surveyor picks up that wiring was done and no certificate because it was DIY and the person didn't bother. So he gets an electrician in and the installation is tested. If it passes then fine, if not then it gets fixed. I don't imagine that anybody is going to call up Building Control and ask them to come round with handcuffs.
--

.andy

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wrote in message

law,
and
civil
And of course dont forget that the idea of paying money for the sharpest, slipperiest, most aggressive solicitor that you can find is to protect you from answering any nasty questions untruthfully or to your detriment....
--
Richard Sampson

mail me at
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wrote in message

without
socket
we
lining....
A detective relative of mine said, "never say anything", "never answer questions". A good lawyer or copper may have the knack of ribbing you to get your emotions up. He said "it is a game, ignore them" and he said " I always admired a pro under provocation from us, who just said nothing at all. He won, we lost, he walked away".
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So were you a policeman as well then, or just the helmet?
--

.andy

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wrote:

I
The funnies are coming by the load.
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wrote:

You're right: for a standard rewire no one will notice and no one will care. But when you sell you have to complete a seller's questionnaire which currently has a question as to whether you have replaced any windows since the magic date and if so where is the paperwork. No doubt there will be a similar question about electrics: it's just that 90% of people will know whether they've replaced a window or not, whilst 90% will have no clue as to whether they have done work to which Part P applies. But if unsatisfactory or non-committal answers lead to more installations being tested (at a guess only a tiny percentage are at present) then it could be argued that safety will be improved. How much more sensible though to have just required anyone selling to produce a Gas Safety Certificate and Electric report.
--
Tony Bryer SDA UK 'Software to build on' http://www.sda.co.uk
Free SEDBUK boiler database browser http://www.sda.co.uk/qsedbuk.htm
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