OT. What the withdrawal agreement really means.

https://brexitcentral.com/dont-fooled-brexit-deal-creates-triple-lock-shackle-uk-brussels-forever/
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I am not reading Harry's crappy right wing linkss, but I would like to say I am really pleased with the way the bexit fiasco is unfolding. I find myself becoming optimistic and hopeful for the future again. I see only two or three possible outcomes now, least liked first:
The May deal by some unpredictable fluke gets through. An election and the Labour party delay before introducing an even softer brexit. The whole thing is cancelled and indefinitely postponed by Peoples Vote.
So ukip and Leave are in my estimation all but defeated now. Not by the opposition or any Remain movement but hoist by their own petards of internal conflict, lies, fantasies and false promises. They have effectively self destructed.
It would be really good to put brexit and the nasty nationalists away for the long term with a proper defeat at the ballot box, and it would be really good if they were permanently excluded from what's going to be left of the Conservative Party so they can't get back into parliament but we will just have to see how events unfold. Anyway-
Looking forward to a happy and prosperous 2019! For all of us!
TW
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what if Labour do not win that election (note that doesn't mean that the Tories will win instead)
how is the problem solved (This distinct possibly of this happing is exactly why there WONT be an early election)

the Peoples Vote results in "LEAVE"
You are fooling yourself if you think that isn't a 50-50 possibility.
And then, should Brexit be cancelled, there's the distinct possibility of a voter revolt at the election (be that an early one or at the next scheduled point) where a re-vamped "Leave" party (probably not the rump of UKIP) sweep up enough seats to start the process gain. 30% will win you most electoral constituencies and if all of the leavers vote the same way in those constituencies (against the incumbent who thwarted their wish), it's mathematically possible.

UKIP I'll give you
Leave not.

absolutely not
it was spoiling by Remoaners that has cost us a decent leave deal, not bickering amongst Leavers, most of whom want the same thing.

Nonsense
There is a decent Leave deal to be had if we had pursued that line unencumbered by trying to satisfy the wish of the elites who wanted BrINO all along.
tim
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tim... <tims_

Whatever spin you put on it to make yourself feel better it doesn’t hide the fact that those political leaders who advocated Brexit that many who wished to leave the EU put their trust in ,are unlikely to deliver the result people like you wanted. That is either poor judgement or ignorance or piss poor planning by people like you
for depending on people who were not up to the job or were on personal crusades. You should have waited till the case to leave was stronger which if the EU is going to implode according to some who advocate leaving will happen in the not too distant future would have brought a less contentious referendum result if the movement for leave had waited till then. Instead like sheep you have followed the path to getting a technical leave but in practice unless something really changes drastically a situation where the EU still is able to influence the UK heavily which isn’t what you wanted and causing a lot of economic damage on the way which hasn’t ended yet. You can blame those who wished to remain all you want but it is people like you who were gullible enough to follow those who said leaving would be easy, all those on the remain side have had to do was wait why the leave side has struggled to get what it though was going to be so straightforward.
GH
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On 12/01/2019 15:34, Marland wrote:

Most people who voted for Brexit knew that resorting to WTO tariffs was a possibility.
If there is a another referendum and the result reverse3d, then I can see both Labour and Tories votes decimated by an invigorated UKIP led by Farage. In short there will be greater political Mayhem than Teresa could ever imagine.
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I'm pretty sure that wasn't even on their radar!
They will have voted in the main to:
Reduce immigration. (= 'get rid of all these immigrants who are getting free flats and bunging up our doctors and hospitals ...'
'Give 350M/week to the NHS instead.' (which was never a valid sum or likely to happen).
'Stop Brussels making our laws' (the chances are no law has ever affected any of the negatively but the chances are they would have made things better for them).
Many people who voted put as much effort into doing so (in the form of personal research) as they do deciding if to have a tea or coffee.

And none of that is as significant as the referendum being annulled (it shouldn't really even be overturned as the result was 'engineered' away from a stalemate). I'm not saying we shouldn't still consider the option, should there be some real / actual justification in the future.
Cheers, T i m
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On 12/01/2019 15:50, Fredxx wrote: [snip]

My feeling is that Brexit is yesterday's failed project now. Nothing will reinvigorate ukip. All the arguements for brexit have been knocked down and discredited. There may be a hardcore of nationalist right wing nutters left shouting 'leave means leave' but really not enough to cause anything like mayhem. TW
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Not when a no deal brexit is what happens if parliament cant agree to another referendum or to revoke Article 50.

Correct, but its certainly possible the Leave will replace it.

That is just another bare faced lie.

There doesn’t need to be given the a no deal brexit is completely automatic if parliament can't agree to revoke Article 50 or to have another referendum.
You remoaners are fucked. Hilarious.
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On 12/01/2019 18:36, Rod Speed wrote:

[...]

Oh Roddy! The PM says brexit may not happen, the Brexit Secretary says brexit may not happen, the Tory party are recruiting candidates for the next election to the European Parliament because they know Brexit may not happen, but you - you think you know better. That is so funny! TW
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And you're actually stupid enough to believe that lying cow that said that there would be no general election and then had one when she stupidly decided that she would do well in one.
She doesn’t get to decide that anyway, parliament does.

See above.

They'd be stupid not to given that there is no downside in doing that.

We'll see who is laughing on 29-March.
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How True.
--
I am the God of Hell fire and I bring you: Brexit

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Cant see that myself given that its now been stupid enough to welcome that fool Robinson. Cant see to many voting for them now, even if a second referendum does vote to stay.
I can't even see Farage returning to ukip and kicking those out.

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I would be willing to bet that most people who voted leave have no idea about WTO rules.

Naa.
--
I am the God of Hell fire and I bring you: Brexit

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Seems very few have.
But odd that Brexiteers want to swap one set of rules they claim to have no control over (EU) with another set they'd have even less.
--
*Why do the two "sanction"s (noun and verb) mean opposites?*

Dave Plowman snipped-for-privacy@davenoise.co.uk London SW
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On Mon, 14 Jan 2019 14:30:38 +0000 (GMT), "Dave Plowman (News)"

Yet another inconsistency from the Brexiters. They seem to believe in Brexit as if it were a religion.
--
I am the God of Hell fire and I bring you: Brexit

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On Monday, 14 January 2019 15:24:47 UTC, Mark wrote:

You could say exactly the same about remoaners or any other group of individuals except perhaps athiests. Wasn't that long ago that the majority of people in the UK strongly believed in one religion or another, but as we dumped them we progressed.
The difficult thing is to know whether or not to walk away from the situation you're in, being told that if you don't leave now you will never be able to doesn't inspire confidence.
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On Mon, 14 Jan 2019 07:35:53 -0800 (PST), whisky-dave

The very fact that many Brexiters use the term "remoaner" to describe people who disagree with them shows a fanatic religious fervour.
--
I am the God of Hell fire and I bring you: Brexit

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On Monday, 14 January 2019 15:57:16 UTC, Mark wrote:

No more so than Brexiteers which came first.
If you'd said those that voted to leave the EU I would have replied with those that wanted to remain, but you seemed to prefer to use teh term brexiters why ?
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On Mon, 14 Jan 2019 08:03:35 -0800 (PST), whisky-dave

That makes no sense.

Brexiters or Brexiteers: neither is a derogatory term, unlike "remoaner".
--
I am the God of Hell fire and I bring you: Brexit

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On Mon, 14 Jan 2019 17:08:21 +0000, Mark

To get that you would have to also get 'empathy' and the 'fanatical Brexiteers' (I use that description to differentiate them from the ordinary leave voters), don't.
What do we want? Something the majority of the electorate didn't. When do we want it? Now and at any cost (to everyone).[As long as we (the minority) get what we want ... but you won't get an acceptable reason why ...]
Cheers, T i m
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