OT: 'Our Energy'. Is it going to work?

On 17/02/2017 11:20, Brian Gaff wrote:

No it isn't! That's why solar and wind cause problems. As the energy generated by them goes up and down you have to throttle some other source of electricity to make sure you don't generate too much.
Variable demand also causes problems but its more predictable than wind/solar.
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Brian Gaff brought next idea :

Actually that is only partially true. Generators can be turning, but not actually being used to generate much if any power. As such they will not consume much fuel or energy to keep them turning over. Once they need to meet a demand, then they have to be fed with more mechanical energy - just like your car's generator (alternator).
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On 18/02/17 16:32, Harry Bloomfield wrote:

Electricity cannot be produced that is not used. A[part from Dinorwig the Grid has no storage at all.
Brian is totally wrong
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The Natural Philosopher formulated on Saturday :

Generators do have to be turned for a while before they can be used to generate. The turbines have to be spun and brought to temperature. The turbine, has a solid connection to the generators. So the generators can and do run, without doing any useful work.
Generation cannot be instantly turned on and off, it takes time to ramp up and time to ramp down, which is why being able to accurately predict demand is so important, so as to have generation running ready to meet the demand.
Once running, it is cheaper to keep them online, which is why we see the price breaks of E7 etc..
So Brian was partially correct.
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On 18/02/17 20:23, Harry Bloomfield wrote:

Do you know who I am?
www.gridwatch.templar.co.uk
Grandmother, eggs, suck, teach

"electrical energy is generated even if nobody is using it" Is a false statement, Its not 'partially correct' Its just plain false.
Spinning reserve is not generating electricity.
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The Natural Philosopher explained on 18/02/2017 :

I am well aware of you and your website.

Strictly speaking, if a generator is rotating it must be generating some power, even if that power is only utilised to power the station itself. As soon as a generator is running, up to temperature and in sync, it will be placed on line. At which point adding more input power, it will be generating.
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Do you know how much I despise anyone who uses that phrase?
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The answer is 'Ask that nice nurse over there'.
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Dave Plowman snipped-for-privacy@davenoise.co.uk London SW
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On 20/02/17 10:52, Harry Bloomfield wrote:

Strictly speaking you are wrong. It may be USING power (to overcome heatlosses and bearing friction and to drive pumps) but it ain't GENERATING any.

Which is correct but utterly contradicts your previous statement that it was generating BEFORE you added mire input power or even got it in sync.
You can spin a dynamo or alternator forever but until you draw current, it ain't generating anything more trhan whooshy over your head at 30000 feet noises.
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The Natural Philosopher laid this down on his screen :

Of course it is generating, what is driving the feed pumps?
Once in sync it has to either generate some electrical output, or consume. It might be idling, but even at idle it outputs some power. The volts are there.
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On 20/02/2017 20:01, Harry Bloomfield wrote:

Possibly the grid.

Volts are not watts.
In sync it can be either driving the grid, or being driven by it. Or nicely in balance, and doing neither.
Andy
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On 20/02/17 20:01, Harry Bloomfield wrote:

Almost certainly the national grid
BUt lets face it, in order to generate as *you* define it, you just need a pack of coal and a hearth..
Not feeding the grid but obviously 'generating'.
Which is why no one but you uses such a stupid definition of 'generating'

# Oh dear. watts is volts times amps. If amps are zero power is zero.
There are volts in a battery sitting in a shelf,. How much power is it 'generating'
Sigh.
Refresher course in basic electromagnetism ?
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The Natural Philosopher pretended :

None, batteries do not generate at all, ever.
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On Mon, 20 Feb 2017 22:54:40 +0000, The Natural Philosopher

Yes, but they don't 'Generate' electricity (which I think is the point Harry is making).
"In electricity generation, a generator[1] is a device that converts mechanical energy to electrical energy for use in an external circuit."
So, a battery would 'transform' chemical, into electrical energy, which is not a 'mechanical' process.
I disagree with Harry on the idling generator 'generating' energy though (when 'generating' would be taken as 'energy being released outside of the / a closed system').
When I was racing EV's I would see my (permanent magnet, DC) motor consume energy on the uphill bits and generate energy on the downhill bits. On some of the bits in between it was still spinning in proportion to the road speed but was only consuming it's background (no load) current. On the slight downhill bits it consumed no power at all. ;-)
(Which is why it's said you should always let the engine be spun by the decelerating car rather than coast and force the engine to maintain idle itself, if you are looking for the best fuel economy).
Cheers, T i m
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On 20/02/2017 23:45, T i m wrote:

Interesting that that excludes fuel cells.
<snip>

Hmm. If the engine is spinning at say 3000RPM surely that'll take more energy than it would if you let it drop back to tickover.
Though I daresay there aren't many occasions when you really want that maximum roll, and aren't braking down a hill or stopping.
Andy
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On 21/02/17 21:40, Vir Campestris wrote:

Oh, its also a demonstration of the poor command of English that remoaner people have.
Other things than those that are called 'generators', 'generate electricity' As you have just pointed out.
T i m, being funadamentally brain damaged thinks that because all cows have 4 legs, anything with 4 legs is a cow.
He also has trouble reading slogans on the side of buses.
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On Wed, 22 Feb 2017 00:19:47 +0000, The Natural Philosopher

Who is the sad old man prattling on about now?

What, like these:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Generator
Where all that apply generate electricity from mechanical input:
I previously quoted info from here:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electric_generator
That wasn't what you were picking holes in the spelling or grammar was it? You really must be scraping the barrel if that's all you have old man!

Aw bless ... more FUD ...

For that to have had any real relevance I would have had to acted on it and I didn't.
Oh dear, faceplanted again old man ... better luck next time! ;-)
Cheers, T i m
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On Tue, 21 Feb 2017 21:40:39 +0000, Vir Campestris

They are still a 'chemical' rather than 'mechanical' solution though aren't they?

Yes, but not if your foot is off the throttle? ;-)

Quite. ;-)
I think the idea was that some thought that to save fuel when they were going to be coming to a halt, they would slip it into neutral and cruse (on tickover), only stopping on the brakes (pre regen braking etc).
However, if the engine is having to maintain tickover it's got more throttle than if there is no demand for power and is being 'driven' by the inertia of the car as it decelerates.
Not really ever tried to do that myself, just something I heard that I found interesting. Strangely though, I think it might be better for a 2/ (tank mix especially) to idle than be spun at high revs with a closed throttle (but for different reasons). ;-)
Cheers, T i m
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On 22/02/2017 00:35, T i m wrote:

I said energy, not fuel.
If your foot is off the throttle on any modern car the injectors will have turned the fuel off.
It's your kinetic (or potential, on a hill) energy that is spinning that engine.
Andy
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On Thu, 23 Feb 2017 21:42:25 +0000, Vir Campestris

Erm, if by take you mean 'consume kinetic energy by converting inertia into (mainly) friction and heat' then yes, but I thought the point was fuel consumption? ;-)

Yes, that's what I said didn't I ... and hence the engine wouldn't need to maintain it's own tickover revs = less fuel consumed.
Cheers, T i m
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