And that's the thing, is it realistic to expect anyone to predict the length of their stay in such places or to put £100 on the parking meter, just in case they do? [1]
Yes, I agree that sounds like a good idea. What would be better is to do what they do with the Dartford crossing and allow you to setup a 'payment pot' and allow them to draw from that (with email notifications, or probably register a credit / debit card and draw off that automatically).
Without access to what 'the system' thinks you owe, how do you know how much to pay (as when it appears I was 1 minute over the 1 hour I paid for)? Or does RingGo deal with that?
At least with a paper ticket (or even receipt) *you* knew what time the system had you in at so you could more accurately pay on the way out?
If that is the case, maybe refer them to today's news. There was an article in one of today's papers or possibly the BBC (I can't remember which one as I was looking at a number online at lunchtime). A driver has successfully contested a penalty charge on the grounds that you cannot always find a space immediately and you can get stuck in a queue getting out, so the time allowed should start from when you pay for your ticket, not when you enter the car park and should have enough leeway to ensure that you have time to get out again if you move off before your time expires (many car parks apparently do allow 10 minutes extra). It was only in a magistrates court, so not a legal precedent, but still worth pointing out.
Some years ago a friend of ours drove himself to Trafford General (Park) Hospital after falling down the stairs. He walked into A&E and told them that he was parked in the car park, but could not pay, they said he would would be hit by a penalty. He pointed out that his change was in his right pocket, he could not get it with his left hand and it was too painful to put his right hand, with two broken fingers, into his pocket. He also could not leave his car elsewhere and walk in, as he'd broken two toes. They still insisted he must pay or suffer a penalty!
These days Trafford General doesn't charge for parking though :)
We are going to have to make a special trip down there, just to check / photograph the signs and payment stations and will also consider the points you raised when we do.
My main question is why do they think I didn't pay for the 30 minute stay when I know I did.
On the second, I could see (however unreasonable but coming from a RoboPCN) how 1 minute over the 60 I paid for meant that I was there for 1 minute without paying, depriving them of ~£2.
But are they saying that or that I didn't pay for any of it (I'm assuming the latter or wouldn't they have charged me for just the extra minute)?
It was a council car park, 5 minutes' walk away. The dentist was in a 'health centre' with parking only for the disabled. Fair enough.
I have a Dart Tag too!
When you park, you 'buy' the time you think you'll want. There's a slider, and it shows you how much it's going to be (on the next screen, unfortunately). Then you pay (by card, which it already knows). The parking attendants have linked machines so they know what you've paid for.
It tells you how much time you have left - check at any time. When there's about 10 minutes left, it can send you a reminder text. I have also 'extended' the time from the pub! You simply push the 'extend' button and select how much time.
I was once chairing a BCS meeting in the pub and had 'bought' up until
1955 that evening. So had SWMBO (we arrived separately from work). I made sure the meeting wound up in time, and walked out to the car with two minutes to spare. We then noticed a very pissed off parking attendant waiting halfway between our cars!
Also, for off street parking run by a parking company, part of the charge will be VAT - isn't there a legal requirement to provide VAT receipts whenever VAT is charged? You may be able to challenge the legality of their non-ticket system.
Ok (and great ... as sometimes it's a non-linear scale and so you often weigh up the 'value' of covering yourself with some extra time).
Ok.
So in the case of an ANPR managed car park the 'system' would 'know' as you went out though the exit camera.
Well the problem with our scenario is you would (presumably) have to start the clock as you drive in, until I find out if you have a 'grace period' to get in and find a space etc (and even so, exactly what that is as it could take longer if the carpark is full).
I saw that mention on the app.
Cool. ;-)
And when you buy a ticket the ticket itself is you proof that you have paid and I'm hoping that the transactions generated with the likes of RingGo *would* be considered proof of parking payment in court (or it would be pointless using it as such)?
Plus if I read it correctly, paying by card makes the cost of say parking at the Nth Mid for one hour go from £2 to £3.50?
Why should someone be penalised just to get proof they aren't scamming us?
Feck. What is the world coming to. Well, if they can put a parking ticket on an ambulance whilst it's on call then there is little hope eh. ;-(
And that's the thing isn't it, how there is no consistency across the country.
When we need is some bigger body outside the UK to force all the UK / NHS bodies to unify it all so we know where we stand (as we don't seem willing / able to).
Agreed. Are you paying to *park* or time on their property etc.
(many car parks apparently do allow 10 minutes extra).
But that may not be enough. I watched a car 'hanging about' around a small hospital car park for something like 20 minutes before they got a slot and then Paid and Displayed'.
Understood.
On the MSE website there are loads of examples of how you can legally appeal these 'charges' and the suggestion that you should because they are often both unreasonable and draconian (if not illegal in some cases).
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I think the issue with me is this.
I am *know* we paid in full in both cases (I can't see a human parking attendant who wasn't on commission being too bothered about a 1 minute overstay
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Eg, we put the cash in the machine in both cases and if you just take those two, we have still have 29 minutes of unused parking time in credit. We came out of the car park, each time, 2 quid lighter.
So the issue is only, 'did we jump though all the right hoops', like did the machine take the cash (it did AFAWAC), did we put the right reg in (I double checked it and the Mrs proof read it both times). We both checked the screen to make sure it was 'happy' we had done it all right (and we obviously felt we had both times). We are retired so were in no rush to get anywhere, nor suffering any pain or discomfort or disorientation after some intrusive surgery or drugs, neither was it raining or dark / empty etc. We have never not paid our dues and even mistakenly paid when it wasn't needed (Free on Sundays etc), just to make sure. Rather than the alternatives.
Except the ANPR nor the Private Parking Companies care about any of that ... and the frustration is that part of the reason they don't is because so many other people must try it on every day.
So, whilst we could really do without paying 2 x 60 quid for what
*could* be our mistake(s) (without any proof in our favour it's an impossible call) we could just pay it and chalk it up to experience but why should we? So we then get swept along with the politics of all the PPC's being immoral and out to screw people over and going along with the tricks of the trade to make it as difficult and expensive for them as possible.
MSE seems to suggest that we should *all* contest *all* such dubious PCN's as they are all immoral?
I think the grounds are down to 'what financial loss have they suffered' and that they have the right to recover that but not much more. eg. If I took up a space for 1 hour and didn't pay when someone else would have, they have only lost £2.
However, someone has to pay for the ANPR system ...
Ok, that's a start as at least it should probe that you had paid something for the 'stay', even if they then 'charge' you for staying longer than you thought it was.
We use another hospital where as you leave you enter your reg (one of those lookup things where the choices diminish as you enter more characters) and *it* tells *you* how long you have been there and what you owe (that you can then pay by various means). Simples (and you have a reasonable amount of time to leave the site, all tracked by ANPR of course).
In hindsight it would have been well worth it for us! ;-(
Though sadly ISTM you need bear in mind, among other things, that (a) the PCNs were issued on the basis you didn't pay so weren't entitled to receipts, (b) the VAT legislation only requires the supplier to issue a VAT receipt to a VAT registered person, and (c) failure to comply with the VAT legislation doesn't make the entire system illegal.
And AFAIK no one is bothered much in practice about the VAT position since HMRC accept claims for repayment without VAT receipts for payments up to £25. That said, cashless systems are liked by bookkeepers and accountants because they do generate nice VAT invoices - and with itemised times and places so it's easier to spot, say, Saturday afternoon at Wembley.
The absence of a paper receipt seems to me just one factor to be taken into account in deciding whether you or the operator are to be believed.
And I misread what you said. It doesn't go up by £1.50, at least not here.
Looking at my most recent invoice (yesterday) for parking in central Canterbury, the parking fee was £9.00 - same for everyone. I paid a 20p Ringgo convenience fee, and 10p for a warning text (I think you can opt for another text when you start, but I have opted out of that).
Leicester Haymarket used to have a car park arranged so that traffic queuing to enter blocked that attempting to leave. It was clearly a regular problem, but all they did was install gas detectors which triggered signs telling drivers to shut off their engines.
To add to the mayhem, by the time you eventually got to the exit barrier, your validated ticket had expired.
It had such a tight spiral ramp, with scrape marks all the way up, that I avoided it whenever possible.
I still think a supported plea of extenuating circumstances is the best bet. I think we have to believe that they're not trying to penalise patients, any more than supermarkets want to upset genuine customers.
Ah, fair enough and thanks for the clarification. I was just going by the PCN where it says there will be an additional charge for paying by card (so I didn't know if it was a general CPM thing).
I wouldn't do so in a way which admits a failure to comply with the terms of the car park. There is, for example, still the possibility of a fault with their system. Or perhaps of arguing that the display is inadequate given the only other explanation seems to be that 2 people misread the reg. no. entered.
I don't think anyone has made actionable comments about the company which operates the car park so I wonder if it might help if T i m named them?
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