OT: North Mid Hosp, PCN?

[T i m]

From what I have read that doesn't seem to count for much.

Other than the hospitals have outsourced their parking management and these people often offer their services to said hospitals for free.

So you then have 'fees' and 'fines' and it's possible both go to the PMC (or maybe the fees could go to the hospital to cover the rates).

Ah, but they have something to loose, eg revenue and their customers have the option to go elsewhere.

Our issue is not knowing if their T&C's stipulate that you must pay in advance (in which case we have failed to comply on the last 3 visits, even though we paid for our stay before we left) of if there has been an error somewhere, either in their technology (the machine not registering that we had paid) or from us not entering the correct registration number (using a 0 instead of an O etc)?

I can sorta accept that if we are being 'fined' £60 for going 60 seconds over the period that we paid for (it being decided by a machine etc) but resent a 60 pound fine for our payment not being registered for some reason (when we are 100% sure we paid the £2 (1 hour) when only staying there for 30 minutes.

And it's *only* £2 ffs, why wouldn't we have paid it? [1]

Cheers, T i m

[1] And considering the other two hospitals we use regularly take payment either 1) at any time during your stay, as long as it covers the total duration of the stay or b) as you are about to leave and it tells you what you owe and confirms that you have paid it.

[T i m]

Ok.

;-)

I am very torn here.

On the PCN where it is shown via their ANPR that we were 'there' (but not parked for ... obviously) 61 minutes and are pretty sure we only paid for 60, whist it's painful to pay £60 for that extra 60 seconds, I can see how they might (assuming that is what is happening, rather than us being fined for not paying at all (according to them [1]) apply that 'fine' (smack on the wrist for trying to get away without paying the extra £2 etc).

However, where we are being 'fined' £60 for not paying at all but staying for around half and hour when we are 100% sure we did leave that car part £2 lighter (and it wasn't on the floor), even if some technical issue meant it wasn't registered (their equipment fault) or because we entered an O instead of an 0 on the machine for the reg, a bit unfair and if their fault, completely unreasonable and if ours, not commensurate with the action?

So, given the chances of any direct appeal to the car park management com being rejected and any correspondence with them being done by post (they advise), and given they have a vested interest in getting as much money from us as possible ... I don't want to show my hand and potentially weaken my position if all these companies are cowboys (morally if not legally) and do as it seems as the Money Saving Expert suggest and that is appear / reject all such 'charges'?

Cheers, T i m

[Martin Brown]

I am not so sure about that. Parking management on and around hospital sites has been outsourced to the highest bidder (sometimes the physical land sold on as well). You only become aware of this when you have a magic ticket for daily parking and discover it is invalid in most of the carparks and the ones where it is valid have huge queues to get in.

I really mean huge queues. The queue to get into Salford Royal Hospital central carpark regularly gridlocks the A576 back to the M602 and in both directions. They tried to fix it by cancelling the bus lanes but it is still a real mess. It is so bad that taxis often drive on the wrong side of the road to drop off patients (and I don't blame them).

I think stating that you did pay the fee immediately before you left the carpark is the best bet and hoping that they can see a typo for your numberplate in the unreconciled payments. Unfortunately this may be in breach of their T&Cs (though since there is no ticket to display in your windscreen I think they might well be unreasonable).

Not sure the name of the company matters here. I am very wary of making payments for car parking where there is no receipt as proof of payment.

[T i m]

Quite.

This is the general guide from MSE.

They do say there that you shouldn't dispute guilty charges but are mine that?

"Our view is simple. If you get a fair ticket because you wrongly used a parking space, then pay up. But if the ticket's unfair, such as when the signs are hidden, unclear or in small font, then don't pay."

So, *if* one of my PCN's was for just the 1 minute over the 60 that they accept I paid for, then would you challenge it for being unfair (maybe I shouldn't)?

*If* they are just charging me for 61 minutes because they say I didn't pay at all (when I know I came out of that car park 2 pound lighter), should I challenge it (maybe I should). *If* they are charging me 60 quid for not paying for a half hour stay when I know I paid for 1 hour, that one is a cert that I should dispute it (shouldn't I)?

(not me).

Cheers, T i m

[T i m]

That would be my reasonable (IMHO) hope.

Quite, or even a receipt of the payment made, even if it reflects / confirms the incorrect reg entered.

As are we now. This isn't going to help the Mrs as we are due back for her to have a heart stress test soon. ;-(

Maybe she won't need the drugs if she just thinks about the fine we might be getting for parking, even when we applied our best efforts to pay in full. ;-(

Cheers, T i m

[Martin Brown]

Yes. I think there is a 5 minute period of grace in most circumstances.

Absolutely yes if you know you have paid.

Absolutely yes if you know you have paid.

Also complain about the lack of a time and dated receipt of payment.

I hate the ones where you have to type in your car registration if I am driving a random hire car. The keyboard on our local ones are designed for stick insects to use and the display almost invisible in sunlight.

[Robin]

Fair questions - but as I said earlier, you need someone better than me to answer.

FWLIW it seems to me you have recognised that it's hard to decide just what to do without knowing just what you ought to have done - especially whether you ought to have paid in advance. And, if so, whether their signs made that clear.

Without knowing that I'd be in a complete dither between paying up in time to get the discount, questioning the reg no entered on their system and seeking clemency if there was a slip (pleading to PALS as well as CPM), or going in all guns blazing as many on MSE seem to believe is the duty of ever native born human being.

[F]

Contact (ring/write) the hospital and explain. They can, if they wish, instruct the company overseeing the parking to cancel the PCN.

I've done it here with a supermarket after Management overstayed.

[T i m]

Ok. TBF, I don't think there has been much of a delay in parking or getting out in any of the last 4 visits but we don't know if the times they give (via their ANPR) include any 'grace period or not.

This is the confusing one. Could they determine that if we haven't paid for the *full stay* (eg, the 61 minutes) that we haven't paid at all for that *full period* and hence why they are citing 61 and not 1 minute?

If they accept we paid for the first 60 but not the last one, why doesn't the PCN stat just the 1 minute?

We are 100% sure we did (in all cases). We may be old but we simply wouldn't forget to do that sort of thing because it's important we do (for this very reason).

Just to be clear here ... both PCN's state the exact date and time we entered and exited their system, and a photograph of each (with an enlarged picture of the number plate etc). We have no issue with any of that (all confirmed with her diary).

These are 'ok' to read and use (the display isn't overly clear in sunlight as you say but we both made a point of making it readable with our positions) and the buttons are ok, even for my big fingers.

And I'm particularly used to entering data on all sorts of kit ... and we have had (and use mainly) the same car for a good few years now ... so there likelihood of us entering the reg incorrectly is very low (but not impossible of course).

We have a friend who works at that particular hospital who should be able to take a picture of the machine and the T&C's board for us so we might be able to work out exactly what we have done wrong here (assuming we have etc).

Cheers, T i m

[Terry Casey]

That won't do you much good! Dart Tags were phased out several years ago in favour of an ANPR system.

You can pay for each crossing individually in much the same way as the London Congestion Charge:

Or you can set up a Dart Charge account which deducts the money automatically:

or

[Robin]

AIUI that is not a power available in every case as it depends entirely on the contract between the owner of the land and the company operating the car park.

[T i m]

It's all food for thought though Robin (and appreciated). ;-)

This seems to be a similar example of the position I'm in and I like the bit at the bottom (if their equipment is faulty):

"Hoping that they cancel the PCN. As I don't want the PCN to be kept open under my name as this is really a fault of their system and if it has happened to me it must have happened to others as well. Some might think they made a mistake in punching the car registration number when paying for the parking and they might go ahead and pay the fine."

Quite, but I might get a step nearer to that if our friend can forward the picture of the machine and T&C's to us today.

As has been mentioned ... how many of us read all of every such sign we encounter, especially if we have used the facilities previously with no issue?

.. yup ...

I'll ring them again in a while, or see if I can send them an email ...

Quite ... and whilst we can afford to pay the 'fine', the issue on at least one is knowing that you did make every attempt to pay (in full) for the stay, at the time you were staying but have it deemed that you didn't pay at all.

I wonder if the consequences change if you stay there for 8 or 24 hours without paying. Is it the same fine for 1 minute or 8 hours 'over' (were both *could* have mitigating circumstances that would be considered 'reasonable' for most 'reasonable people'?

Cheers, T i m

[Terry Casey]

Lincoln County Hospital uses the take-a-ticket-on-entry system, then pay before you leave.

I got caught out a couple days ago because they'd increased the charges in the previous week!

I went to the machines with what I thought wss the right money (£3.60 for anything over 60 minutes up to 4 hours) but didn't have the extra 30p to make up the new charge. None of the machines accept credit/debit cards, so I put in a note.

It was rejected and 'Insert Correct Coins Only' came up on the screen, so I cancelled the transaction and moved onto the next machine where the same thing happened.

There was only one machine left and, thankfully, this did accept my £5 note but why didn't the other machines deplay the excact charge only warning BEFORE you started?

To asdd insult to injury, the exit barrier was open when I got there, with someone obviously working on it!

Unfortunately, the exit is so far away that you would need binoculars from the pay station to know that first!

[T i m]

Quite. It's also frustrating that because the car parks are often outsourced, when you can't find one machine that will take you money but still have an appointment to attend, 'reception' can't do anything to help. Then you are charge as guilty and have to try to prove yourself innocent. ;-(

I had a colonoscopy and was up and out before the guy who had one before me had left recovery? Then, after walking across the whole width of the hospital site to get back to the car park I found a load of commotion as the exit barrier had come adrift and no one could get out. So, I lifted the barrier back into place and life carried on (to the distress of the Mrs who was reminding me 'I shouldn't operate heavy machinery for 24 hours'). ;-)

I'm always suspicious of even that as with all the automatic system these days you never know if something is going to come and bite you, even if 'someone' has told you it's ok to go ...

Cheers, T i m

[Terry Casey]

Apologies if you've already said this but did you pay cash or by card? If you used a card, you will also have a record from the card issuer.

If you return to the same car park and they asccept card payments, I would definitely take advantage of it in future for the same reason.

[dennis]

Not the best ones to attend. Much better if there is a cure.

[T i m]

Here is another on a more legal standing. ;-)

The car park is advertised as 'Pay and Display', but it isn't is it, if no ticket is generated for you to 'display'?

Cheers, T i m

[T i m]

Cash Terry, 2 new pound coins (a quantity taken with us especially for that purpose). ;-)

Yup ... ;-(

I think we will (although we have avoided such for 'security reasons').

Thanks for the extra thoughts. ;-)

Cheers, T i m

[T i m]

Ok, well fingers crossed etc ...

Cheers, T i m

[Bob Eager]

OK, OK...I have a Dart Charge account, then. I have had the account a very long time, and it was transferred over. (so long, in fact, that I used to have one of the little square tags)