OT more news for livers tolie about.

[dennis]

Typical brexiteer MP rubbishes the report without offering any basis for doing so.

[T i m]

The irony seems to be that those areas who mostly voted for Brexit are likely to lose the most (or not gain as much). ;-(

I wonder if it is also linked with believing stuff like the £350/w to the NHS?

I'm still waiting to vote when I know exactly what I'm voting on and I certainly wouldn't vote for something that was actually predicted to make us worse off! The *reason* I wouldn't is because I know there are millions of people who really couldn't afford that sort of hit and it will make their lives more difficult.

Cheers, T i m

[JoeJoe]

And how many of these "experts" predicted the meltdown of 2008? Even as late as the day before?

[Fredxx]

Are they the ones with least immigration?

Only losers think that had any effect on the result. Most Remoaners tend to quote a higher amount per week and conveniently deny Project Fear.

You'll have a long wait if you still don't know. We were told it was a once in a generation vote. You've missed your chance.

[Fredxx]

Remoaners seem to be in denial of Project Fear. It just made more people vote for Brexit helped when the likes of Michael Heseltine wanted low wages associated with immigrant labour.

[Archibald Tarquin Blenkinsopp]

Things balance out. Ireland was a low wage economy when it joined the EU, or low compared to Britain anyway. It certainly isn't the case anymore.

Immigrant labour is great, it brings wages and prices down perhaps, but money moves around. We need people to pay taxes into the system otherwise we are relying on a falling birthrate to fund pensions.

Less regulation means lower wages, insecure jobs that may be finished at a stroke.

Insecure jobs mean that employers will not invest in training.

It isn't project fear, it's just a natural result.

The Brexiters, with the notable exception of the Moggs and other tax dodgers, have simply said Immigration bad, tick leave Brussels regs bad, tick leave

No thought of the downside, or what the benefits may be.

Take the supposition and the Union jacks out of the Brexiters reasoning and they have nothing.

Sadly patriotism has more to do withsupporting a healthy economy than prancing around pennyless waving a Union Jack.

AB

[Fredxx]

One consequence is the effect on in-work benefits, hardly helping the tax receipts/

Wages are dependent on supply and demand, and less affected by regulation. Regulation also dissuades employers from taking on employees. Look at French unemployment rates and their regulations.

Insecure jobs come from an uncertain market. No one with a stop-start business is going to invest in training.

Do you deny Project Fear and the claims made by Remainers?

Sounds good to me and many others.

Denial again. Do you deny that house costs to earnings ratio is the highest ever? Are you in denial wages are low and house prices are high?

That is the issue, not everyone has benefited from a buoyant economy. Some have done very well, typically from cheap immigrant labour. Others have done well from sitting on houses that have accumulated an unprecedented increase in value.

Sovereignty is important, but that's not why the average Brexiter voted for Brexit.

[Archibald Tarquin Blenkinsopp]

Without doubt, but I don't think that Brexit will help.

Property is being bought up for rental, no doubt with some making a huge profit.

Housing is lower than demand simply because of government failiures to allow more building.

Brexit won't address this.

The Government could cap rents of course, but they have not got too many friends left.

Well they should stick the Union Jacks in the cupboard then and stop pretending that Brexit will benefit the UK.

AB

[Dave Plowman (News)]

Nothing new there - it was part of the 'fear' campaign. Rather the same as the poor who blamed their circumstances on the EU being worse off when we leave.

[Fredxx]

Do you deny there has been some 3m immigration over past 10 years?

Have you not heard of the effect supply and demand has on prices?

Why? What's wrong with supply and demand? Are you going to expand the public sector to cope with the homeless where Landlords close shop?

You don't understand what Brexit is about. It's about the lot for the average working household.

No Brexiter has said it will benefit the UK in the short term, it could certainly make the UK more profitable in the years to come.

[Archibald Tarquin Blenkinsopp]

Yes of course. Prices go up, more suppliers come in to provide goods because they see a gap in the market.

It's called capitalism.

More people to provide the work, if the work isn't required, they drop their wage requirements or move on.

I owe no one a guaranteed steady job at an uncompetitive pay rate simply because they are British.

Everyone in the UK that works, should reap the benefits.

The operative word being "could".

Pie in the sky.

It wont.

I work and have been welcomed in all parts of Europe, no one has been offensive to me because of my nationality except for Wetherspoons in Dunfirmline, and they threw the person out :-). There are a phenominal number of English people like me, some have made other parts of Europe their home, I have little doubt that with the possible exception of Scotland, they were welcome everywhere.

Frankly I find the narrowminded self protectionalist Brexiter attitude sickening. When abroad I find it embarrasing to be English, in no small part because no one seems to comprehend why the British were so keen to reject the EU.

Ireland had it rough after the banking crisis, Greece are no longer at the beck & call of their creditors and their economy looks to be on the ascent. Greece I think came close to walking away, but Greece and the other members seem to know where their future lies and I don't for one moment think that they are wrong.

AB

[Fredxx]

There is no 'uncompetitive' pay rates. That is the consequence of supply and demand.

Agreed, that is the point of Brexit.

It could, your crystal ball is broken.

And visitors to the UK are welcome too. There are consequences when visitors settle here in terms of wages and housing demand.

Other countries also have anti-EU parties. If they don't comprehend, then that is from 'ignorance'.

Both were bailed out. It's call not biting the hand that feeds them.

[Archibald Tarquin Blenkinsopp]

Sorry that's a none starter. Look at what's happening in the BBC.

Someone has seriously lost the plot then.

I'll have to mention it the next time I visit an Irish pub, "You need to exit the EU to benefit from your work".

I would be laughed out the door.

I prefer experience, personal observation and first hand knowledge of the advantages of having and being part of a mobile workforce.

Productivity increases.

They are in the minority. They make news. Joe Bloggs going about his work paying taxes isn't newsworthy. Joe Bloggs walking down the road with a swastika is, and he will find a lot of IQ zeros to accompany him.

So what Everyone borrows money, individuals, councils, countries.

The EU have put measures in place to restrict bankers from gambling money they haven't got, so the problem shouldn't recurr.

We didn't dare. Soft touch regulation it's called.

It would be interesting to know how many MEP's spend their days looking after their own companies and interests. I suspect that few of them have the conflicts of interest that must occur between our governments mp's private concerns and those of the nation.

AB

[Fredxx]

Quite, I recall years ago ITV would pay higher salaries and so a number would abandon the BBC.

It still happens, Jonathan Ross and Jeremy Clarkson are two who jumped into higher salaries.

Then you misunderstand the effect of immigration on wages.

Perhaps the Irish see another side. Their rates of Corporation Tax distort the EU. The Irish haven't seen immigration and same hike in house prices.

You have no idea what trade and other agreements outside the EU, or the agreement with the EU.

Correct, businesses do well, workers do not.

One could say the same about the Tory party, whose electorate have a lower academic standing.

It means our children will pay. Do you really think you get bailed out for free?

If governments like Greece lie about their spending to enter the Euro, it doesn't matter what restriction bankers are under.

Where did that come from?

[harry]

House prices are high due to high demand. These immigrants are all living somewhere. We are told the population would be falling if it wasn't for immigration. Ergo reduced/nil immigration = reduced house prices.

[David]

Sigh.

We were also told that it was a non-binding vote. Advisory only.

Both sides have repeatedly lied their heads off, both before and after the referendum. The Brexit campaigners were far more effective than the Project Fear idiots in their constructive lying. Who likes being threatened by a USA President? Who is, incidentally, no longer in power.

Nothing really binds a Parliament beyond the next General Election and we've already had one of those. Nothing really binds a Parliament during the current session - promises are made to be broken and are not legally binding unless backed up by legislation.

So any politician saying it is a "once in a generation vote" is just blowing hot air, on a par with all the other statements from both sides.

Still waiting for the announcement that we are joining the Eastern European bloc because of the favourable trading agreements and the almost unlimited access to raw materials including oil and gas. This would take us back to the glorious days of the 2nd World War. Wouldn't want a job on the Arctic convoys, though. Still, Turkey might sign up so we could also use the Med. Protecting our access with Gibraltar. Aided by the Russian garrison. Damn, starting to enjoy this which is bad. ;-) Still, our Jezza might well be up for this. Another up side is that we might have access to better multi-role fighters for Big Lizzie. IIRC at one time Eire used to have a productive (if stealthy) trade with Russia so they might be up for joining as well.

Cheers

Dave R

[whisky-dave]

So when do you think they'll tell us how much an EU army will cost us tax p ayers, and who these tax payers will be, will it be google or Apple, how mu ch will the Queen pay towards and EU army.

How about the number of ex service personel now on the streets living rough becasue shelters and mental health services have been cut.

So who'd paying for the EU army ?

I want to know why you'd vote for this and the next generation to not to be able to afford their own homes and must pay another rent so they can sit o n their arse collecting rent from the poor, it'll be like going back to the 1800s with landlords owning the farms and the workers lucky if they can ma ke enough to feed themselves.

[Archibald Tarquin Blenkinsopp]

This I have a considerable amount of experience of. Things were not good before we entered the EU. The Japanese were "doing deals" with us, and decimating our electronics industry. Probably deserved actually as reliability wasn't a great priority then.

We were screwed by them though, and of course De Lorean too.

Everyone was on the bandwaggon, getting huge subsidies to manufacture in the UK, then close shop if things got a bit rough back home.

Historically we are a trading nation because of our geographical location. When we become a second choice to supply Europe with goods, it's a customer base that I don't ever think we will replace.

The little supply problems and stumbling from crisis to crisis was the norm.

I remember a colleague growing vegetables in his semi because of food increases. He wasn't in a bad job, salaried, company car, yet still felt the pinch.

We have screwed our childrens chances. They had the ability to travel freely anywhere in the EU, to live and work as equals. You want to restrict them to this island and without natural rescources and a complete lack of investment in meaningful education, we are not on a good footing to compete with anyone.

All we can do is work cheap and cut any rules that prevent turning a fast profit.

As I said, EU regulations would have stopped the banks gambling with cash they had not got, but I can guarantee that before the crisis that would have been an instant veto from the UK.

Assuming Farage was paying attention and not in the pub of course :-)

Try Wikipedia, it outlines a lot of little gems about current MP's

Private Eye isn't a bad source too, it may look like a comic book, but its "celebrities" give it a lot of creedence.

[T i m]

It does make you do that doesn't it ... ;-(

Well, they always were 'advisory only' and they tried to change it for this one for some reason.

I really can't remember any of the Remain campaign stuff but everone remembers the £350M/w Leave stuff. ;-(

Along with our PM at the time ...

It's a mess isn't it and hardly the way to see Democracy in action.

And it's against democracy. To both twist the rules like that and to 'continue' when only 1/3rd of the electorate voted to make the change.

;-)

Ah, perfect for the Brexiteers then!

Heheh. No less crazy than voting to leave the EU without knowing the extent of the terms I guess. ;-(

And America ... but that was mainly funds and arms to help the 'Freedom Fighters' (or the IRA as we knew them). ;-(

Cheers, T i m

[T i m]

And your understanding of English is heavily flawed.

If the best *your* crystal ball can manage is 'could' then at best it's very very cloudy, so cloudy as to be of no real use whatsoever in fact.

And that's the point ... you fanatic Brexiterrs use the word 'could' as if it means 'will' (and should possibly be 'might' in that case) and without a seconds hesitation as to the potential costs (to everyone) of your reckless gamble (with all our monies).

But then that's the problem with fanaticism, it removes a persons ability to think rationally, to continue to re-think the situation as the picture unfolds and consider the bigger picture. ;-(

Most ordinary people, given the whole Brexit situation and asked to vote on something where the final plans had not been ratified ... would consider it ridiculous.

I didn't vote because I couldn't vote because I wasn't a political activist, didn't have any gripes with the EU and therefore needed to see what the deal was before being asked for a vote (or final vote) on it.

I would imagine every non-fanatic (from either side) would like the same.

Given the facts, I might well vote and vote to leave.

We haven't left yet and so there is still chance for democracy to prevail (which is all I care about), not just allowing 1/3 of the electorate decide the future for everyone.

Cheers, T i m