OT: Happy 'World Milk Day'. (Not if you are a dairy cow of course).

If there was another animal that could understand the concept of consent, then I might agree with you.

Most animals, even ones that appear sentient to you, are likely to be acting on pure instinct.

We are more advanced that other species. However, some are parasites, living off everyone else and contribute nothing to society.

I could digest a cat.

Well, there are cases of whales consenting to let humans untangle them from nets. They may not understand consent from the other creature's standpoint though. Some even seem to be thankful afterward.

On Fri, 04 Jun 2021 15:59:46 -0400, FromTheRafters snipped-for-privacy@nomail.afraid.org> wrote: <snip>

Of course there are, and loads of other animals 'trusting' humans when they have had no prior negative contact with them and so reason to.

Again, they obviously do, otherwise millions of mating (assent) rituals would all be in vein.

Same with not giving consent (dissent) to attack / kill them with animals desperately trying to escape the killing box in a slaughterhouse or gas chambers.

Of course, most sentient creature share many of the same feelings we do (well, trolls excluded of course) especially fear, hunger, paternal, community and friendship. Many animals are monogamous and pair for life, have and protect their offspring, teach them how to use tools and find food, what is considered acceptable behaviour and what isn't.

Consent is *very much* part of the functionality of most sentient creatures, as you will often learn very fast when you try to take food from a gorilla or lion. ;-)

Cheers, T i m

We act on instinct too. If I punch you in the face, you will try to avoid it. If you feel hungry, you find food. It's all instincts, we just do what is required to make ourselves comfortable. And if you had any sense you would treat an animal that doesn't know how to solder a circuit board as just as important as you.

I freed a couple of sheep with their heads jammed in a fence. They let me do it. They did not let the previous person do it. They somehow sensed I would be more careful.

Just how can you prove whether an animal knows what death is?

I once saw a video of a wild bird being upset at the death of it's mate.

On Sat, 05 Jun 2021 18:57:19 +0100, "Commander Kinsey" snipped-for-privacy@nospam.com wrote: <snip stupid troll trolling>

Many species 'mourn' the death of their kind and will even go back to the exact same spot year after year.

It's stupid trolls like ShitHeadxx who obviously don't have a clue about the animal kingdom (which is surprising, considering they think themselves a god) that then make such ridiculous statements like 'animals can't give consent' when it's patently obvious they can.

But if what he decides is 'acceptable' re how he treats another living creature on it being able to give consent (or not able to give consent, as his rule works) woah betide any baby or mentally challenged person who is near him when he's hungry. ;-(

Cheers, T i m

Probably one of DickHeadxx traps. It wasn't Spuke as he doesn't eat sheep for some reason (or cows) but eats everything else apparently.

Animals do have a good sense of that ... many have a greater sense of that than we do (given the range of senses they can use that we don't even possess).

Like our dog is very fussy re who he will approach, let alone allow to approach / pet him and it's a rare moment indeed when he will just walk up to someone (a stranger) and indicate he wants to be friends.

When he does these people are generally calm, always dog owners / lovers and understand that he will give them consent if he is happy / wants attention.

Then there are people he sees regularly, have never done anything aggressive towards us or him and yet he will still bark at them. In most cases they aren't 'comfortable' around dogs and it's obvious he can sense that.

It's probably down to the aroma they radiate (the smell of fear), if dogs can detect the residue of Corona virus on someone's T-shirt, even if worn by someone who doesn't have Covid, even as they walk past the dog, who know what signals we give off unwittingly?

And for a smallish dog he's got a very loud bark and that has made many people jump. ;-)

Cheers, T i m

Wasn't a trap, it was the fence supposed to be keeping them in.

No dog is ever vicious with me, even when the owner has warned me I'll get my finger removed. I once cuddled a cat while waiting for someone to answer the door, the owner was shocked, she claimed even she had her face clawed if she tried that.

I know one dog I can make very angry by staring at it. Quite funny as I can make it charge at the front door by looking through the window. The hallway is slippery (laminate), it never remembers this and collides with the door at high speed.

I know <rolls eyes> ... ;-)

I still might stay respectful and let the dog come to me etc.

Yup, I seem to have a similar reaction. I was warned against putting my fingers anywhere near the cage of sisters neighbours large parrot when they were away and she was looking after it. I went with her to feed it and she popped home to get something and when she came back it had it's head up against the bars and I was stroking it. Apparently it's beak was like 'bolt croppers' and it 'hated men'. ;-(

They can forget themselves sometimes but I tend not to torment them under any circumstances.

Cheers, T i m

This happened a few years back. I went to post something through a woman's letterbox (they're on the front door for any backward Americans reading this). There was a closed gate and a sleeping large dog. I had to open the gate to get to the letterbox. The dog awoke and very quickly shot out of the garden and ran off out of sight. The woman ran out of the house swearing at me, chased the dog, and took several minutes to get it anywhere near the house, but it wouldn't go on the lead or in the garden. Still waiting in the garden, I crouched down and beckoned to the dog. It came over and played with me. She shut the gate, stared at me, then said, "That was very stupid!" "What?" "That dog is dangerous! Why did you come in my garden?" "You hid your front door behind the garden." "Get off my property!" "With or without the dog that hates you?" I opened the gate to leave and the dog tried to follow, almost knocking her down when she stopped it.

I had a macaw that was in love with an amazon (called Sky). If I tried to pick up Sky, the macaw would shout "No! Don't touch! Leave Sky alone!" Ignoring this warning was not advisable. It's cool how they learn the meaning of words from things I've said and put them together in a different order.

Teasing isn't tormenting.

Dogs digest cat s*it, would you do that?

On Mon, 07 Jun 2021 18:40:53 +0100, "Commander Kinsey" snipped-for-privacy@nospam.com wrote: <snip>

The problem with DickHeadxx's logic is that because he's a god he

His *solution* to the exploitation, pain and suffering is to reduce it (impossible to remove it), still doing the final act of cruelty by taking the life of an animal (often whilst very young).

So his answer to (human) slavery and all the pain, suffering, exploitation and death that caused wouldn't have been to simply stop it completely, but to have given the slaves lighter chains, water twice a day and *only* beat them if they didn't do what he asked (because that's the sort of 'high welfare guy he is).

I'm not sure if there will ever be a time in his shift as a god where he will see that whilst the above is bad enough, all the *other* negative stuff adds up to a process that some of us simply don't want a part of and because there *are* innocent and voiceless creatures who are suffering for him, to try to get others to be aware of all the injustice and do the right thing themselves.

When confronted with the above, all the likes of DickHeadxx will do is try to distract from what he does (the routine killing of innocent creatures because he likes how they taste and *believes* doing so is essential) buy repeating ad hominem about vegans keeping dogs (even if they rescued them for an uncertain future), pets that are often give the best and typically live 12-15 years longer than most animals that end up on his plate.

Cheers, T i m

;-)

I sort of get that, especially if you saw the dog before opening the gate?

Like they do when you aren't threatening to the or even better, look like fun.

Hehe. And some people don't think animals can't give consent (or assent or dissent). ;-)

Met a lady (again [1]) when walking to a mates with the Mrs earlier who was waling / trainer her 18 month old golden lab. While we were chatting I was playing ball with the dog and at one point he picked up my Tilley hat and ran off with it. So I picked up his ball and he dropped the hat. ;-)

I really couldn't keep a bird and never have. Seems to be the ultimate level of imprisonment to me, other than maybe racing pigeons (but don't agree with those either etc). Of all creatures that deserve to be free, birds are it.

I did rescue a Rock Dove that (after treatment by the vet) couldn't fly so stayed in the garden in the roost I made him / her.

The whippets could typically get to any visiting cat before they could get near the pigeon. ;-)

And he was completely right of course, unless you left the window open during the day for it to come and go as it pleased?

;-)

Most animals are 'cool' and all of them deserve to live as *they* choose. Before the trolls jump in, the exception (or certainly the last to do) is the *domesticated* dog as they have evolved to live with and often rely on man and why they (not cat's or anything else) are 'Mans best friend'.

It can be, depending how it's done.

I was talking to a young mum and her young daughter in the park the other day and she admitted she was frightened of dogs (because ours tends to greet most people who deem to look at him with a fairy loud greeting). From further conversation (I like to learn the reasons behind such fears if people are happy to chat) was because her dads Doberman bit her on the face when she was young but she quickly added 'because I was teasing him'.

So that was a good example of the tormenting not being 'accepted' by the dog (as fun / play) and it's dissent was indicated in a pretty clear way.

Our (daughters) dog will now be very accepting of you say moving his food bowl whilst he's eating or holding onto a chewie while he bites bits off but if you try to go near something he's chewing and even sneakily try to get it it's very clear (by how fast he turns his head or moves away) he doesn't want to play (like you can stroke his head or even his nose but if you move that stroking down towards his mouth ...). ;-)

This is very different to stopping him trying to swallow a cooked chicken bone he finds on the street when I will happily put my fingers in his mouth and get him to spit it out. When he does, I give him a treat in exchange.

Cheers, T i m

I wasn't the one that shut it in a small garden.

Ah! Bribery!

I don't like them in cages, I keep them in aviaries or loose in the house. At the moment, there are 6 greys and amazons (out of 8) who have chosen not to come out of the aviaries. The doors are open into the house, and only two regularly come out to explore.

They don't understand the dangers of hawks, other people, cars, etc.

On Thu, 10 Jun 2021 18:54:01 +0100, "Commander Kinsey" snipped-for-privacy@nospam.com wrote: <snip>

DickHeadxx's 'thing' is 'Animal welfare. If the animal is suffering (even if only mental cruelty) or being exploited (often to an early death) then that's ok, as long as there are given some level of basic comforts (food, water, shelter) till the point you stick a bolt gun in their face.

So, at the Yulin dog / cat meat festival, he wouldn't be actively campaigning trying to stop it or even not supporting it, he would be asking people to sign a petition ensuring that only 5 dogs should be stuffed into one small cage, rather than the 10 they do at the moment and that if they are currently given water once a week, he would 'petition' to make it twice.

This virtue signaling means little to the cats and dogs that are

Nephew, also thinking he was actually helping when out in Thailand by buying a wild bird that was due to be killed and eaten to set it free. All that meant is that bird will likely earn the seller twice when they catch, kill and cook it the next time round.

Oh, and DickHeadxx also suffers from specism, logical inconsistency and hypocrisy. He wants to *stop people* eating foie gras and that's ok because *he* understands that to be cruel. He doesn't accept why many who understand *all* animals have rights can't agree with his inconsistency, him not letting people eat one animal because he thinks it's treated cruelly but not all the others that are treated equally cruelly?

I bet he rattles off a strong letter of complaint to the slaughterhouse that is outed for it's bad treatment of animals (over and above the std bad treatment, like killing innocent creatures etc) when he would have far better impact by not supporting the cruelty in the first place by not buying the stuff. [1]

But he doesn't *actually* care about animals, outside the nutrients they provide him and so why he can't possibly ever agree that taking an animals life against it's will is wrong, even when it's proven to be unnecessary and with a long list of other reasons why it's bad for him and all of us.

Cheers, T i m

Yeahbut how many sleeping dogs have you sneaked up on? I can't move without ours jumping up.

Quite.

Well, distraction at least. ;-)

Isn't that just a big(er) cage though?

Again, 'in', when most birds can fly hundreds (thousands?) of miles a day? I did see a lady out walking the other day who had a small (live) parrot of some sort on her head! Assuming it wasn't glued there (and could fly), I'm guessing it was quite happy or it could have flown away. On the other hand it might not have been confident in flying away as it didn't have the support of a flock?

What about the doors to freedom?

Well, possibly not, if they haven't evolved to be aware / avoid them etc but that suggests they aren't in their natural habitat? Most animals have an ingrained understanding of what might consider them for dinner, except us of course with our traps and guns ...

I'm not sure many animals have fully evolved to deal with either yet, except some birds possibly because of their mobility and fast reaction times.

You still get them flying into lorries and windows when they don't typically fly into cliffs and trees.

Cheers, T i m