OT Apprentices and wages

[ARW]

The most interesting bit is the last sentence of the story.

So what do you get paid these days if you go to college when you leave school?

[fred]

In article , ARW writes

I'm sure, "To support our hard-working apprentices . . . " had you rolling on the floor like you were having a fit. Did anyone try to force a stick between your teeth?

An excellent analogy, the NUS seems to forget that a wet behind the ears 'student' apprentice is about as productive as a bantam chick, that the pay they receive reflects the training they are receiving and that they get more pay as they become more productive.

I wonder how many would sign up if they had zero pay, had to pay for their college courses and had to pay back 'apprentice' loans.

[Nightjar]

There was a time when apprentices had to pay for the privilege of being an apprentice and learning a useful skill.

[Mr Pounder]

When would this be and for which apprenticeship? I was an indentured apprentice heating and ventilation engineer in 1966. I was a slave and got paid peanuts.

[spuorgelgoog]

Probably up until the early 20th Century.

An Apprenticeship Indenture is a legal document binding a child (usually ar ound the age of 12 or 13 but sometimes as young as 7) to a master or mistre ss for seven or more years. A sum of money (premium or consideration) was u sually paid to the master, and in exchange he (or more rarely, she) agreed to train the child in their trade or profession, and to supply them with ap propriate food, clothing and lodging for the duration of the apprenticeship . An indenture needed the signature of a Justice of the Peace in order to b ecome legally enforceable.

Owain

[Nightjar]

It became a legal requirement in 1768, although it had been common practice for some time before that, and it applied to all apprenticeships. I presume it ceased to be a legal requirement in 1814, when it also became legal to practice a trade without first having served a seven year apprenticeship. However, my late father had to pay a fee to be apprenticed as a surgical instrument maker in the 1930s.

[Mr Pounder]

Probably up until the early 20th Century.

An Apprenticeship Indenture is a legal document binding a child (usually around the age of 12 or 13 but sometimes as young as 7) to a master or mistress for seven or more years. A sum of money (premium or consideration) was usually paid to the master, and in exchange he (or more rarely, she) agreed to train the child in their trade or profession, and to supply them with appropriate food, clothing and lodging for the duration of the apprenticeship. An indenture needed the signature of a Justice of the Peace in order to become legally enforceable.

I still have the copy of my Indentures. Would you really like me to .............. (scanner is f***ed) photograph it, upload to Dropbox and send here???!!!!!

[Mr Pounder]

Fair enough. In 1966 this would have been unheard off. My father would/could not have paid one old penny for my apprenticeship. He was one of those silly people who did not live in a scum council house, thus he never had much money. OT - he hated council house scum. Like father - like son.

[Old Codger]

Lefties like the NUS forget that.

When I left school 61 years ago I entered a 5 year apprenticeship. I was away from home so spent the first year in a company hostel. This meant lunch in the works canteen and catching a bus to and from the works. First year wages were £5:17:6 (£5.875). The hostel charged £5:6:0 (£5.30) Lunch was 1/- (5P) per day and bus fares 1/- (5P) per day. I quickly got my bicycle down which saved the bus fares. That left me with 1/6 (7.5P) pocket money per week.

The money did improve as I gained experience but after the first year I had to pay commercial rates for digs.

Of course, the previous generation had to pay for the privilege of an apprenticeship so I considered myself lucky.

[tim.....]

Surely this isn't how it works

the 2.73 (or whatever) is the pay rate for the time that the Apprentice actually works for the employer.

I know that they need to be overseen but they must be doing some useful work during that period

Do they also get paid for the tim whilst at college, I really don't know

tim

[Robin]

But from the employer's point of view you need to subtract from the value of the work they do the cost of telling/supervising/checking up on them - especially the cost of the time of their "masters". Given the latter are likely to cost an awful lot more per hour than the NMW employers would be far less likely to take on apprentices if they had to pay them the NMW when they are under 19 or in their first year. Of course that may well be too difficult for the NUS to understand. Or of course they might just say that employers should be compelled to take on apprentices.

Yes they are (well, should by law) be paid.

[gremlin_95]

I do, all expenses incurred by travelling to/from college are also covered.

[Andrew Gabriel]

College and apprenticeship are not good analogies.

Graduates are not work-ready when they come out of college (although just how much that applies depends on the grad and the job). They enter employment, and it takes about 2 years before they are being productive - genuinely worth their salary. During that 2 year period, there's still an apprenticeship but not by that name, where they are learning and consuming the resources of supervisors/mentors, and costing more than they can generate in value to the company.

In today's pressure on costs, that's a significant reason new grads are now finding it difficult to find jobs. The company and the grad really need to be committed to each other for at least 5 years, or the company will not make back their investment in the person. Indeed, it could be their competitor who benefits if the grad leaves before then but stays in the same business.

Some companies do understand this, and providing they have a 5+ year view and they know how to retain good staff (which doesn't necessarily mean paying high salaries), they can take on grads and benefit.

[Nightjar]

On 22/02/2015 21:51, Mr Pounder wrote: ...

My father didn't live in a Council house. That didn't stop him from progressing from a skilled manual worker to Director of a company owned by one of the multinationals.

[Mr Pounder]

Very good and well done. Your point was ........?

[ARW]

Has anyone actually read the last sentence of the link?

It says "In the meantime, apprentices are earning an average of £6.79 to £11.63 an hour depending on their level of apprenticeship" and then compare them with the minimum wages for U18s, 18 to 20 year olds.

And yes of course they get paid to attend college and they also get paid to attend other training courses.

[ARW]

Where is asbestosis when you need it most:-)

[Robin]

Didn't seem to me to conflict with apprentices being more of a cost than a benefit at first. I thought you had amply demonstrated that with tales of the wear and tear they impose on you and the need to weed vigorously :(

It also struck me the dear old NUS didn't seem to appreciate what a good advert it was for apprentices:

"Apprentices earn on average nearly double the NMW before the end of their apprenticeships. After that of course they can get a lot more."

ISTM that's a better deal than many graduates get struggling with unpaid or minimum wage internships. OTOH I don't suppose apprentices get 3 years of swilling cheap beer and lying in bed until noon when they fancy it. But well done gremlin_95 if you managed it :)

[spuorgelgoog]

Apprentices aren't usually members of the NUS though.

Returning officers are paid by the government £6,458 for a National UK Re ferendum (per election, not per annum)[1] in addition to their normal salar y which is usually Chief Exec of the council.

However the NUS would like to pay their Chief Returning Officer ... nil.

It's nice to see unions campaigning against low pay.

Owain

[1] [2] /

[meow2222]

and generally the company is worse off with the apprentice than without. Newbies take several times as long to do jobs, screw them up routinely, and generally waste time in as many ways as possible. You cant just leave them to it.

NT