OT Apprentice wages

[Tim Lamb]

£4-8/- a week for an electrical engineering apprentice 1960. There may have been a slight element of London weighting.

[Tim Watts]

On Wednesday 03 July 2013 08:44 soup wrote in uk.d-i-y:

If I were 16 now, I would be giving serious second thoughts to going to university with the extorninate costs involved. Assuming I knew I was handy with computers, I would probaby consider apprenticing with a company that did something with networking, datacenters or similar. Then I would find out what, if any, university course was likely to be a net benefit to me (ie lead to good payback in terms of work and was in demand).

I would also make sure I had relevant summer jobs booked for which prior work experience would probably go a long way to securing.

Back in the 80's, I went to uni because I had the A-levels and there was no reason not to (effectively free). As it happened I did a course (physics) that seemed easy at school but was actually not suited to me at a higher level (computing and electronics would have been).

The only use my degree is is in passing the fairly arbitrary "must have a numerate degree" that most of my university posts require. I have never used anything beyond A Level maths and physics for anything in the real world.

[Mr Pounder]

[Bob Eager]

It's certainly true that there are too many at university, and not enough in other forms of education that would give them - personally - a lot better return.

Of course, the costs haven't changed - it's just that the student pays rather than the taxpayer - the university still gets much the same amount as they always did. The repayments are low enough that many will never repay the loan before it's written off after 30 years - someone on £30,000 p.a. pays £67.50 a month - if they've never had that in the first place, they won't miss it much.

But the real problem is that there aren't many (often more suitable) options.

I could offer you one! We have a very high employability rating too!

True. Again...getting a uni course that includes a year in industry makes a dramatic difference - and can be financially rewarding - we've had placement students on as much as £37,000 for their placement year, although they were worked hard and had to be bloody good.

Same here. Electronics was wrong for me but computing would have been right.

Our graduates use rather more, but computers are ubiquitous and I guess it's to be expected.

[Mentalguy2k8]

How much do they earn?

[Dave Liquorice]

er, I'm sure you realise that you don't go to University at 16, you go to "Sixth Form" to get A levels to go to University at 18...

The costs, well the student loan is cheap money and you don't start paying it back until you are on a reasonable income and even then it's at a pretty low rate and it gets written off after 25/30 years or so.

No.1 Daughter is currently "in limbo" between Secondary and Sixth Form. I'm only half keeping an eye on the University Fees/Student loan stuff as they are almost bound to change the rules again between now and two years time...

Bits of paper are useful but I do agree that real experience in the work place has a lot of value to employers. If it only shows that you are willing to get out there and do something rather than sit around waiting for something to happen.

[Mentalguy2k8]

I agree. The hardest part is trying to convince them to look at the long-term picture.

[Tim Watts]

On Wednesday 03 July 2013 10:42 Dave Liquorice wrote in uk.d-i-y:

Well, yeah... But 16 is a good time to start thinking about it - it may affect the choice of A-Levels taken ;-o

This is true - but what about the means tested maintenance/cost of living side - that looks horrendous? It seems that a lot of working parents would have to support their kids through uni for housing and food. Or am I wrong?

[charles]

That was certainly true 50 years ago. When we married, SWMBO was still a student. Her father got a massive civil service payrise and her grant went down even thought I was supposed to be the one 'supporting' her.

[Bob Eager]

AFAIR, they can still get about 65% of the student maintenance loan. At that level, since they probably won't pay it all back anyway, might as well lump it in.

[ARW]

I teach them theory when we are travelling to jobs. They are still getting paid even if it is a two hour journey to work. If some of it sticks then it is worth it

[ARW]

You can hope for whatever you want.

I teach life skills better than most.

[jgh]

Yes, I'm sure plenty of 20-year-olds want to live in doorways or under bridges. That's why they're there, they *want* to be.

JGH

[jgh]

The students are *supposed* to pay, but the overwhelming expectation is that the student's parents pay. I've never seen newspaper articles on "how to pay your university fees", but piles and piles of "how to pay your child's university fees".

JGH

[Bob Eager]

The fact remains is that {students,parents} now pay all of it rather than about a third, and the government pays nothing rather than two thirds.

As for the parents paying - that's daft, because there is no real incentive to pay fees (or the repayments thereof) *at least* until graduation.

But it sells papers I suppose.

[Adrian]

Courses are still heavily subsidised for UK students. The exact amount of subsidy obviously varies from course to course, institution to institution, but it's still there. If it wasn't, then overseas students would be paying £9k, too. They aren't - they pay a lot more - and universities NEED to attract them for that funding, to help with subsidising UK students. Even then, universities require a lot of other funding to not collapse financially.

Given that the number of students at university has exploded in the last few decades, was it really sustainable to expect government to support them all to the same extent?

[Adrian]

Courses are still heavily subsidised for UK students. The exact amount of subsidy obviously varies from course to course, institution to institution, but it's still there. If it wasn't, then overseas students would be paying £9k, too. They aren't - they pay a lot more - and universities NEED to attract them for that funding, to help with subsidising UK students. Even then, universities require a lot of other funding to not collapse financially.

Given that the number of students at university has exploded in the last few decades, was it really sustainable to expect government to support them all to the same extent?

[Adrian]

Courses are still heavily subsidised for UK students. The exact amount of subsidy obviously varies from course to course, institution to institution, but it's still there. If it wasn't, then overseas students would be paying £9k, too. They aren't - they pay a lot more - and universities NEED to attract them for that funding, to help with subsidising UK students. Even then, universities require a lot of other funding to not collapse financially.

Given that the number of students at university has exploded in the last few decades, was it really sustainable to expect government to support them all to the same extent?

[charles]

well. it was successive Governments that encouraged technical colleges, art colleges, etc, to become Universities.

[Fredxx]

No they're not!!

I have also read that the contact time between university and students is alarmingly few hours and so real tuition fees per hour are astronomical.

UK Universities do not represent good value for money for students!