ODPM admits Part P consulation flawed

[Andy Burns]

wwotch owt thew wascawwy wabbit iws behwhind wou!

[John]

Why bother with rats - use a small blowlamp with fire precations available

[Andy Hall]

How big is the sample rate though? 2-3 jobs per year out of hundreds?

Who will police this and at what rate of policing?

There is something fundamentally flawed in a system where the seller is commissioning and paying for the survey.

No I don't. I would always arrange my own surveys and deduct the cost from the purchase price.

[N. Thornton]

In message FbnCd.2839$ [e-mail], BigWallop (spam.guard@_spam_guard.com) wrote: Subject: Re: ODPM admits Part P consulation flawed

electric and

reputation in

That's just too tempting a question to ignore. No is the answer, definitely not.

Firstly a survey on gas, electric, structural design etc costs a small fortune at the very time a buyer can least afford it.

Secondly these surveys have anything but a satisfactory history, with inappropriate nitpicking complaints being almost routine, and recommendations for inappropriate works being common too.

Third they do not provide any kind of indication of how important each issue is - or in fact whether its an issue at all, which it often is not.

Fourth I can do a much better survey myself in 2 hours at no cost, as can a substantial number of people.

Fifth such surveys are a waste of time and money for the many properties that change hands with known assorted provlems in need of repair: people that buy these properties are not clueless people that need the above surveying doing for them.

Sixth such surveys are too often used to generate bogus faults, or to exaggerate trivial faults out of so much proportion as to try to knock the buyer's price down with no reasonable grounds, or they result in evidently expertise-starved mortgage lenders making inappropriate demands and restrictions.

Seventh and finally, and possibly most importantly, do you not think that each of us is a grown up capable of deciding for ourselves when and whether to have what kind of survey or paperwork exercise? Why exactly would we need to force everyone to spend on a closed shop service that almost none of us would choose of our own free will? Do you not see the agenda there? The percentage of grown ups that choose to have a full survey now is, trying to remember, something like 1% or

2%. We dont want them! And thanks nanny, but I think we can decide for ourselves, dont you?

NT

PS I didnt pay for any survey when I moved here, and am glad I didnt.

[Andy Luckman (AJL Electronics)]

But *are* you?

[Owain]

"N. Thornton" wrote | Would I be correct in saying that domestic electricians do not | need to certify their work.

What do you mean by 'certify'? The point of Part P is that work must be carried out either by a registered contractor or under the auspices of Building Control

| Whose responsibility is it now, the householders | or the sparky's to apply to the local BCO or whatever it is?

It is the householder's legal duty to ensure that all Building Control applications and other statutory obligations are fulfilled. There may be a contractual agreement that the contractor will make the application and include the fees in his bill, but it remains the householder's legal duty to ensure this is done.

| Are there in fact any qualifications needed in a domestic sparky? I | know a while ago none were needed, but dont know if this has changed.

Of course not. This isn't about qualifications or competence.

Owain

[Stefek Zaba]

Prezactly. There's a huge range of choices we all make in doing a house move / house purchase - balancing a hundred "nice to have" factors against a basic "mortgage repayments exceeding gross income by a factor of two" ;-) How comprehensive a survey to go for, whether to try to cover the bulk of eventualities or to concentrate on a couple of worry areas, balancing our own knowledge against what we believe we can pay for. The interests of society at large are already catered for in building regs and planning law, which work together to avoid the worst excesses of an unregulated market; beyond that point, no bureaucracy can anticipate the myriad of factors people want to take into account when deciding on moving house (or choosing whether to buy at all).

As I'm sure I've wittered on about before, the best 100 quid or so we ever spent in connection with a housemove was about 20 years ago, when we were in our mid-twenties and keen on a quite pretty-looking little detached cottagey place in North Oxford. It'd had its attic/loft built into, and the job had been bodged such that the roof was squashing down and pushing the tops of the walls out. The surveyor was smart enough to phone us with this news within a day of doing the survey, offering us a substantial saving off the cost of the survey if we were happy with his verbal report rather'n a written one (sthg like 80 quid vs 140). Spies in a place up the road confirmed the eventual purchasers spent most of a winter in a caravan in the garden while the necessary structural remediation was done. The kind of thoughtful flexibility extended to us by that surveyor is impossible under the micro-regulated dreamworld which brings us Part P...

Stefek

[James]

What do you mean it won't stop homers at the weekend, that's exactly what it does. No one including sparkys can do hone electrical work with out part p certification or building control.

I'm not a sparky so don't think I am standing up for them only, but if a qualified sparkly cant do their own electronics what is this nanny state coming to.

I agree with another poster that a minimal test should be put in place , where the local councils to allow DIYers (and non part p sparkys) to do work on their own home, or that of friend but as long as no free is charged.

I believe that you don't need to be corgi registered to do your own gas work, just "competent" but that's another argument.

So why the sparkys are all shunning this registration,

How about approx £ 1000 pounds costs in the first year,

I don't

I agree with surveys, but when I purchased my home I was recommended to go for the middle survey, steer clear of the basic one for obvious reasons. The most comprehensive survey was only recommended or old houses.

It will be down to the survey companies to keep a good reputation in

Not so sure, but I can se some reasons behind them, but mostly just a nanny state and profit.

You'll already know that you're not moving in to a dangerous bodgit and

[Nick Atty]

Can someone explain this "kitchens" bit to me. I have two double sockets and a light fitting in rooms outside my kitchen but closer to my kitchen sink (and to all other sources of water etc in my kitchen) than the lights at the other end of the room (the lights I installed myself a few years ago, the rest was there before).

Access to the lights is through the floor of the room above.

Why is changing one of those light fittings in any possible, plausible or credible way more dangerous, or leads to greater risk, than the sockets outside the room?

Plus the fact that well before I moved in the kitchen was a kitchen a dining room and the previous owner removed hte partition wall. Can I put it back up, change the light fittings and then take it down again?

[Nick Atty]

Don't we just have to give the building contol people 48 hours notice? Can't we designate a day in March, say, as Part P day and all do our notifiable work on the day, causing complete meltdown of the inspectors?

[Mike Harrison]

..and the biggest objection to Part P is that they redefined the word 'competent' to mean a member of the appropriate cartel.

,..and the realisation that so many people will be ignorant of, or just not care about the new regs that it won't get them any more business.

[Andy Burns]

Why bother changing walls ... since the corrections define a kitchen as "a room or part of a room which contains a sink and food preparation facilities"

Remove either the sink, or the food preparation facilities, do the non-notifiable work, then replace ;-)

[Bob Eager]

to mean a member

Indeed. Which locks out the majority of genuinely competent people.

about the new regs

I see that B&Q have a small notice by the electrical bits...saying you should consult Building Control or look at the OD{M website.

[Andy Burns]

[John]

That does of course depend on your definition of a small fortune! A "full" electrical survey will be expensive but a simple outline survey which would confirm a representative check of suitable current rating cables being used, an earth loop impedance/confirmation of suitable earthing measures, an insulation test and a report on the general condition of accessible/visible parts should be sufficient to put a prospective buyers mind at rest. A gas safety inspection to the level of a landlords gas safety inspection would not be particularly expensive. A structural survey for most properties will depend on known local conditions but two or three hundred ought to meet the needs of most small dwellings.

As usual the surveyor uses lots of wriggles to avoid being sued if he has missed anything

That can be addressed by asking for clarification when needed

YUP but we are talking about the great unwashed here

YUP again

Shit happens

I can decide for myself but many people can't. We must keep those in mind also. I do agree that it should be voluntary though or at least non-compulsory if the buyer doesn't want the survey. Mortgage lenders only have power over folks who need their money.

[Ed Sirett]

Joining fees, exam fees, calibrated and certified 16th Edition test kit. Easily £1000.

[Mike]

Do you really think any of these departments are ready for part P at all? I gather many of their staff have the same view of it as us.

[Mike Harrison]

Has anyone tried to notify them of work yet...? My reading of the regs is that your only obligation was to notify them - didn't say anything about paying fees, co-operating, or even saying what was to be done.....

Is it legally possible for BCOs to just say ' OK, fine' without actually doing anything...?

[Tony Bryer]

Arguably though (I know reality is otherwise), if you are in business as an electrician you should already have the last of these.

[Owain]

"Bob Eager" wrote | I see that B&Q have a small notice by the electrical bits...saying | you should consult Building Control or look at the ODPM website.

I shall have to look for that next time I'm in a (Scottish) B&Q ...

Owain