LED filament bulbs

Came across this, interesting. https://ledlam.co.uk/how-do-led-filament-work
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On 16/01/2018 17:31, harry wrote:

What an odd idea. Make a super-duper LED lamp that emulates a pre-WW2 incandescent.
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Max Demian

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On 16/01/2018 18:49, Max Demian wrote:

Our local has them and they look really good.
Bill
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On Tue, 16 Jan 2018 18:49:44 +0000, Max Demian wrote:

Well the "retro" type are available but the basic collection of straight filament sticks are (mostly) the most effcient domestic light bulbs out there at > 100 lm/W. They are my bulb of choice now, provided the price is right (<£3 ish). Not had any failures in the aproximate 9 months since starting to use 'em. Been disappointed with the life of chip based LED bulbs.
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On Tuesday, January 16, 2018 at 7:32:25 PM UTC, Dave Liquorice wrote:


can you post a link to a lamp you are using Dave? thanks
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On Tue, 16 Jan 2018 12:45:12 -0800 (PST), misterroy wrote:

the

are my

I have various one in use. The first were a "distress" purchase of SES candle type to fit some new light fittings, 3 for 2 offer in Tesco, so £4 each. Others have come from Homebase (on offer) or Costco.
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I think the important feature is not the shape of the filament, which in many applications you can't see, but the wide angle of illumination, which often works better in light fittings designed for traditonal incandescent lamps.
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Roger Hayter

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On 16/01/2018 18:49, Max Demian wrote:

I find its actually a very good idea - I use them almost exclusively. The main attraction (other than being nicer to look at in applications where you can see the bulb) is the 360 degree radiation pattern, that closely resembles a GLS lamp. Hence any fittings that use the lamp cap down or the whole lamp side on, still give the intended illumination.
There is a second significant advantage, in that the strips are typically arranged into relatively high voltage chains such that they can be be wired in sets of 4 directly across the mains with no need to use dropper capacitors. Hence better reliability and less temperature sensitive ageing.
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On Tue, 16 Jan 2018 22:00:09 +0000, John Rumm

Does GLS have a standard size? I have one of these LED filament bulbs in my sitting room but the diffuser has a 65mm hole and won't fit over the bulb.
Any ideas for an LED with equivalent light output in a smaller bulb?
AJH
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I got a "candle" format GLS BC LED from somewhere for a table lamp with a glass globe that has a small hole and won't fit over a incandescent bulb, much less a standard LED one. I think it came from B&Q.
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Ah but was it 11W and 1440 lumen? This is what we have currently without the globe and I don't want to lose too much light if I refit the globe.
AJH
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On 17 Jan 2018 10:49:29 GMT, Huge wrote:

'GLS' is the shape and size of the ordinary incandescent bulb, so you can't have a GLS candle - it's a bit like having a 3-wheeled bike! There is a number for the standard size but ICR what it is. Sometimes it's confusing; IIRC, MR16 is a shape, GU10 is a base/cap but is MR16!
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Ah, OK. Hopefully you knew what I meant.

Aaaeeeiiii!!!!
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On Tue, 16 Jan 2018 22:00:09 +0000, John Rumm wrote:
====snip===

I'm afraid that's most definitely untrue. The closer the 'filament' drive voltage rating approaches the supply voltage, the greater their sensitivity to supply voltage variations becomes in regard of their forward voltage drop conductivity.
LEDs can't be driven directly from a constant voltage source without risk of thermal runaway when being driven close to their operational limits typical of GLS applications. They need some form of current limiting whether a simple capacitive dropper that drops 30 to 70% of the supply voltage or else a more sophisticated electronic ballast that supplies a more tightly controlled constant current optimised for the LEDs used in the filament strings or the COB array.
Since my commissioning tests on each new LED GLS lamp I've purchased during the past 5 years or so have revealed a higher consumption than that claimed for these lamps in every case, I've finally come to the conclusion that it's a consequence of meeting a minimum Lumens output (typically a 60W equivalent of 810Lm) at the bottom of the 220 to 240 volt mains voltage range when powered from a 240v UK supply.
The first of the latest "High Efficiency" 68LPW GLS "60W equivalent" LES lamps bought from Asda about 5 years ago claimed a consumption wattage rating of 12W. Testing revealed that it was actually taking 14W but I wasn't bothered too much about that since it certainly provided far more light output than the 20W CFL "60W equivalent" it replaced.
The only downside being that it was rather heavier than the replaced CFL due to the use of a meaty well engineered finned heatsink which placed an extra burden on the height adjustable pendant luminaire over the dining table.
It was eventually replaced a year or two later with an even more efficient (and lighter) 81LPW "60W equivalent" LED with a claimed consumption of just 10W which measured pretty close to 12W. Again, the extra consumption wasn't an issue (but I was beginning to see a pattern emerging). The Asda branded lamp (part number: LDA12WE27COA3000K)[1] landed up in my Anglepoise desk lamp where it remains to this day. Interestingly, a recent test revealed a consumption figure of 13.5W which most likely was the result of the voltage being lower this time round compared to the original test voltage condition some 5 years ago.
More recently, I've seen the same sort of inflated measured consumption versus the rated consumption with the Poundland lamps - 6W versus 5.5 for the SBC 470Lm lamps and the later 510Lm versions. Even the three quid Home & Bargain 12W 1500Lm (125LPW) LES "100W equivalent" showed an inflated wattage reading of about 13.5W when I tested it before installing it into the bathroom light fitting which had housed the last remaining incandescent GLS lamp.
[1] Curiously, this Asda branded lamp quotes 50/60Hz in addition to the 220 to 240 volt supply @67mA (implying a PF of 0.85) which strongly suggests an electronic ballast more sophisticated than a mere dropper capacitor.
However, the 220 to 240 volt range seems to be more in keeping with UK and European supply voltages where 50Hz is the standard frequency of supply so it's just possible that the mention of 60Hz may simply be a matter of mislabelling (possibly a "force of habit" error).
The only other place where 60Hz is standard outside of the USA that comes to mind is Japan (well, roughly half of Japan - the other half does use 50Hz) so it seems a little unusual that a lamp designed to operate in the range of 220 to 240 should also include the 60Hz option.
Since ICBA to find a couple of 7AH SLAs to black start my spare APC SmartUPS700 in 60Hz mode, this claim of 60Hz compatibility is going to remain untested for the foreseeable future.
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On Wednesday, 17 January 2018 04:55:22 UTC, Johnny B Good wrote:

sounds like you're not up to date with the latest generation of LED lighting drivers. Not finding the link but basically they switch which LEDs are on according to the momentary mains voltage.
NT
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That sounds like a terrible idea.
JR, JbG and even AG can argue the toss, but if Big Clive Mitchell isn't aware of it, it's not happening. ;-)
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Graham.
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On 17/01/2018 16:20, Graham. wrote:


https://youtu.be/KKd2L9Exw0M?t

https://youtu.be/KKd2L9Exw0M?t
7
BUT watch to around 9 minutes.
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On 17/01/2018 04:55, Johnny B Good wrote:

Yup, actually I would agree with that ;-)
I am both over simplifying and typing faster than I was thinking!
They do of course include current limitation - and that quite often is a capacitive dropper. However what I was getting at was that they often have less "complicated" drivers - and can quite often get away without using electrolytic caps commonly found in many switching supplies, which seems to be the weak spot of many.

Many use a (simple) RC network as a current limit, usually then feeding a bridge rectumfrier. The individual strips usually have a forward voltage drop of around 60V. Often strung with a couple in series (paralleled up on the higher wattage versions). That means you are dropping around half the voltage in the supply. Many seem to slightly under run the filaments (although that may be a reflection of the voltage range they are designed to cover).
(personally I am less worried by a small loss of efficiency fron under running given the relatively low power anyway such that the gains are fractional watts)

Most of the "60W" ones I have claim 740lm IIRC. Oddly I noticed some recently where they lumens figure was actually lower on the daylight version.

Do you know if that was a true power 14W or was there a reactive component in that figure?

I recall someone trying to use an (early ish) CFL in an anglepoise. The results were fairly predictable!

Possibly just someone specifying something they felt ought to be in the spec... (wither that or they had a job lot returned from someone trying to use them on an aircraft 400Hz supply ;-)

Yup, there are some things that even enquiring minds don't really need to know!
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On Wed, 17 Jan 2018 10:47:21 +0000, John Rumm wrote:

====snip===

Actual RMS power as shown by my Metrawatt analogue watt meter.

The Asda lamp wasn't as heavy as those early Philips jam jar SL13s of which I presume you speak. The anglepoise seems to handle the weight of the Asda lamp with ease (certainly far better than the Ikea pull down pendant luminaire I'd transplanted it from).
====snip===

Well, since it functions quite well as a slightly brighter equivalent to a 60W incandescent light bulb in the anglepoise lamp, I'm not overly bothered about the details. Replacing it with a 150LPW version in a few years time is only going to save a mere 7 watts or so which is neither here nor there in the larger scheme of things anyway. It will eventually be replaced, but only after I've had my money's worth out of it.
I'm looking forward to the more efficient LED GLS lamps *finally* reaching the market not for their reduced running costs so much as for removing the need to stop being so fussy about which of the existing luminaires can safely take a 150W equivalent lamp without risk of premature failure due to overheating. :-)
The slight reduction in the overall electricity bill is a welcome side effect but not enough reason by itself to invest in the improved efficiency of 150 and 200 LPW lamps. The original CFLs grabbed all the low hanging fruit of electric lighting running cost savings over two decades ago, leaving LED GLS lamps to slowly gather the high hanging fruits of energy savings during the past 5 years as an exercise in diminishing returns.
Twenty years ago, it made good financial sense to invest 50 quid in CFLs to knock 250 quid off the annual electricity bill. Today, it would take a 50 quid investment in the latest LED GLS lamps just to knock another 40 to 50 quid off the electricity bill. It's just not enough of a saving, especially when you know you'll most likely be able to achieve the same savings a year or two later for a mere 20 or 30 quid investment in LED lamps.
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On 18/01/2018 00:53, Johnny B Good wrote:

I think quite a few (well, me!) got them for a lot less than that. And while there can be some pretty good savings, CFLs had more to them than that - with warm up, slow fade to fail and not always (or often IME) as listed light output/quality. Although personally I quite like the light of some CFLs.

With the exception of a couple of small ES dimmable LEDs, one strip fluorescent in the kitchen, and a couple of multi LED fixtures (which proved better/cheaper than bulbs/shade), I don't think I've spent more than £2 on a bulb (mainly £1), and replaced when CFLs etc failed. Not a single failure (yet), with the oldest at about 10,000 hours. And I tend to keep some lights on, and have a lot of table lamps (not a fan of one main room light most of the time).
So for my use (and maybe that of a few others) it can work out at a decent long term saving, especially if advertised bulb life can be assumed.
It would hopefully have a knock on in the sense of grid capacity requirements, especially as street lights start to be changed to LED
My main criticism, on the loose assumption that they don't all start to fail, is the directional nature of the light. I seem to have got used to that - although whether that's a good thing to get used to or not is an issue.
> especially when you know you'll most likely be able to achieve the same > savings a year or two later for a mere 20 or 30 quid investment in LED > lamps. >
Yep, that'll probably happen.
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