Interesting blog on fracking

[Java Jive]

No, not now, because we already have debts totalling £1.2t.

However, presumably there were first million and billion pound projects some time, sooner or later there will be a trillion pound one, if there hasn't been already.

We've been snipping too much, and you've lost the point of my remarks. The original thread ran thus:

On Sat, 24 Aug 2013 08:54:52 +0100, The Other Mike wrote: JJ:

TOM:

My point is that because underground cabling is generally more reliable than overground, from the current system, you'd exactly expect: "Usually less in urban areas and more in rural ones."

So viewed as a rebuttal of my remarks, it isn't, IYSWIM.

Try telling that to the population. Try telling that to any population, particularly one of a small market town of equivalent population in the south of England.

And again, there's a hypocrisy here in the form of another double standard. Posters in this ng complaining about the proportional of unreliable renewables currently in the generating mix frequently say things like: "Just wait until the lights start to go out!". Actually, they already do, and have been doing so for years.

Yet apparently there was serious talk of it at the time, and some talk of it now, though I think we're too poor to do it now.

So it brings down power cables.

Yes, there too.

[Java Jive]

USING THE TECHNOLOGY CURRENTLY PLANNED BY THE UK GOVERNMENT, the position is exactly as I've stated it. World nuclear fissile supplies for that technology will run out before oil.

What, as usual, TNP is trying to do is sow confusion by throwing in other possible nuclear technologies. It is legitimate to discuss other possible nuclear technologies, though not very fruitful, because they aren't going to happen, because they are not part of current UK plans. What is not legitimate is to imply in any way that his figures relate to current UK technologies by throwing it unannounced into a discussion based on UK policies.

This w>

[Java Jive]

[polygonum]

With film here:

And an honourable mention in the I-can't-believe-there-really-is-a-site-called-that

[harryagain]

[Roger Chapman]

If my neighbourhood is any guide that sort of thing is quite common in England. Search Long Lee Lane, Long Lee in Google Earth and use street view to go closer to the pylon to the east or go West to view the next pylon on the line.

[harryagain]

The cable we used at that time would just about be ready for replacement by now.

[The Natural Philosopher]

three things that occur.

"teams have been brought up from southern england.." I wonder how that would work in an independent Scotland? I wonder what happens to windmill with that much ice and snow on it? The comment from my electricity supplier when I undergrounded the 11KV running over the house 'lets just say we are not putting in any more overhead 11KV stuff at all'

Most of that arran stiff is 11KV and SHOULD have been put underground rather than repaired. We get 1-3 failures s a year due to branches knocking off power lines or external conductors arcing over insulators. Underground failures are very rare. The trees are cut ever 5 years or so to reduce the problems, but the cost of doing thats is not trvial.

This applies far less to 132/275/400KV stuff yes, but the 33KV and 11KV should really go underground. its actually cheaper in the long run.

[polygonum]

I suspect that specific movement occurred after Scottish Power got into bed with Southern .

[charles]

Could work perfectly well. After the great storm in 1987, repairs to both electricity and telephones were carried out by teams from the Republic of Ireland.

[charles]

Scottish Power were bought by a Spanish Company; it was Scottish Hydro Elecectric that bought Southern Water.

[The Other Mike]

Yes it is a simple answer, a VERY simple answer, the kind of thing an enviromentalist, a politician, or an activist or would come up with.

Strangely you may find regulators, accountants and engineers have the same answer on this one.

FACT: Cables don't last forever.

[The Other Mike]

Tony Sayer asked " I don't think theres ever been a collapse failure of the 275 or 400 kV systems anywhere ever in the UK?"

Those are not 275kV or 400kV pylons

and FFS stop top posting !!!!!!!!!

[The Other Mike]

Something the undergrounding campaigners don't appreciate is that conductors will be running at 90 deg C at full load, which on a number of circuits does not always coincide with winter maximum demand and can occur in mid summer. With overhead lines, particularly in the UK it is relatively easy to get rid of the heat, underground significantly less so.

[The Other Mike]

Read again

UK pylon total = 88000 of which 22000 are on the UK Transmission network

5000 wind turbines

22000/5000 = Just over 4 transmission system pylons per wind turbine NOT 22

[The Other Mike]

I've read it. "John Maynard Keynes, Rudyard Kipling and Hilaire Belloc" Without exception they are all nobodies,, with no concept whatsoever of the engineering requirements and the financial mplications.

Across a number of posts you give the impresssion that they are a fit and forget, comprehensive answer to increasing supply reliability.

[The Other Mike]

That I find difficult, no make that near impossible to believe.

Even with near unlimited funds the Saudis have overhead power lines. It is not justified for Arran or almost anywhere else it isn't already. It's not justified for the vast majority of new routes either.

The Kintyre overhead line, shown in that photos is 132kV not 11kV. The network operator would not propose, nor would the regulator permit, any wholesale undergrounding of those lines. They are in the arse end of nowhere and blend into the landscape unlike the peppering of white housing, the non native forests, the cleared uplands used for grazing and the wind turbines.

And when they do occur the costs of fixing them are huge

Per customer - 7 faults per 10 years, and an average of 1 hour 10 minutes lost supply per annum or an average 99.9867 % availability.

Some more figures to add to the previous estimates. There are nearly 170,000 km of 11kV overhead lines in the UK. In cable costs alone that is 3.4 billion (GBP

20k / km 3 core 150mm2 XPLE). That is just the cable, not the installation.

Then another 65000km of 400/230v overhead cable

It is not cheaper to underground 'in the long run' by any stretch of the imagination. If it was then there would be vast areas of the UK being dug up for cables during the past 20+ years in this drive for savings.

P.S. Scottish Hydro, battered by 'hurricane force' winds have the lowest overhead line fault rate in the UK, Scottish & Southern Energy operating in Southern England the worst.

[Java Jive]

[Java Jive]

Why are you quoting 'hurricane force'?

And, as you say, source?

[Java Jive]

Alright, let's do that ...

So I now see that that's possibly ambiguous, as I took it to mean that there are 88,000 + 22,000 = 110,000 pylons in total , which is 22 per turbine. However, even if it's just 88,000 in total that still leaves us with 18 pylons per turbine, rather more than 4.