How far travelling a Hybrid with no petrol

[Steve H]

Fuel cells don't emit NOx. It's only when you burn Hydrogen in a traditional IC engine you get NOx.

[NY]

Apologies: in the second paragraph I meant to say "diesel engines and hydrogen IC engines". I misunderstood what the the OP was, then re-read it and corrected myself in one place but not in the other...

[Chris Whelan]

[...]

When was the law changed regarding that then?

It was always a legal requirement that an attendant had to be present, and have full view of filling operations, at all times.

Chris

[NY]

There are plenty of filling stations (eg the one at the Asda near me) which are open 24/7 as long as you use pay-at-pump, but are only staffed during daylight hours. Maybe they are monitored remotely by CCTV when the payment booths are unstaffed.

[Steve H]

They are. The security guard in the main building usually has a monitoring station for the filling station.

Some fuel companies have been investigating remote CCTV coverage for unmanned stations - but UK petroleum officers aren't keen on it. (Belgium is big on unmanned stations like this)

[Andy Burns]

There's certainly an asda here that is un-manned (no kiosk at all, I think it has to have remote CCTV coverage) and the pay-at-the-pump ones stay open after the kiosk is shut.

[Huge]

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And I've already seen a queue of Teslas at London Gateway services waiting to use the "Superchargers".

[Huge]

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I can only assume you've never owned an air conditioned car. I would never buy a car without it, having owned one.

[Peter Hill]

I wasn't talking about the staff. UK regulations requires the driver holds the trigger on the pump nozzle for filling of Diesel and petrol. All latching devices (beloved by the fire prone gas guzzling USA car owners) had to be removed from the pumps for the public to safely use the pumps without a pump attendant. In the USA people goof off and then forget to remove the nozzle from the tank and drive off ripping the filler hose off the pump. Or they get a static charge and pull a spark igniting the fuel vapour that has been expelled from the open tank filler when they go to take the nozzle out. In the UK if you are not in attendance holding that trigger, stood out in a freezing gale, you don't get any fuel.

You can plug an EV in and walk away or sit/nap in your nice warm dry car. You can even make phone calls, send/receive texts/e-mail or use the internet while charging. They will switch the pump off if they see you doing that while filling with petrol or Diesel. I wonder what people will do with 1/2 hour to kill when they get an EV RV.

You can plug a FCV (fuel cell vehicle) in and walk away as that is a sealed filling system, locked on the filler port so is allowed to latch.

[Peter Hill]

The ITM Hydrogen Refueling Station (HRS) being rolled out in the UK for public use does not serve 30 cars a day. It can serve 16 cars a day. They will have to install a larger or 2nd unit for 30 cars/day.

More FUD.

ITM HRS can only store about 15Kg of hydrogen so doesn't pose a big threat if blown up. About the same risk as 3 car petrol tanks. LPG filling stations with above ground tanks are a better target in terms of energy release.

As it can only fill 3 cars back to back if you are 4th in line then you have to wait 24/16 = 1 1/2 hours for it to make a tank full of H2. A HRS with capacity for 30 cars/day is unlikely to store more H2 for safety reasons so the wait for 4th fill will be 24/30 = 48 min.

There are less than 50 fuel cell cars in the UK and only idiots will be buying them at £60K a pop. The EV equivalent (OK with 1/2 the range but

1/2 price fuel) is around £30K.

The ITM HRS is electrolytic and uses grid connected electricity to make the H2 on-site. So a 30 car/day station will put just as much load on the grid as an EV charger that can charge 30 cars/day.

20 tons H2/day needs 50 MW of power. That will need a large gas turbine all to itself.

[Huge]

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Well, quite. Skipping over the fact that "Mr. Cheerful" is an idiot troll, when criticising the safety of hydrogen fuelled vehicles, his ilk seem to conveniently forget just how dangerous petrol is, and we deal with that adequately.

IMNHO, the obvious solution is (are?) flow batteries. Then "all" a filling station would need would be the ability to pump liquid electrolyte in and out, a set of engineering problems already well solved.

[Chris Whelan]

+1.

Traffic conditions, at least here in the SE, mean spending long periods stationary or moving in queues very slowly. Even on a mild day, that's pretty unpleasant with no A/C.

Chris

[Peter Hill]

The fundamental issue with fuel cell technology is that there isn't a single dealer on the whole planet that can service the hydrogen fuel system and the fuel cell.

Not only that but the RAC/AA/Greenflag can't do anything with them either. Just put it on trailer and take it to the maker.

There will never be a lower cost non-franchise service option and the only way of getting FCV will be on lease from the maker. That makes them worthless on the 3rd hand market.

[Brian Reay]

I'm not entirely convinced the problem of 'repairing' batteries in either all electric or even hybrid cars is entirely fixed.

We are in the process of looking at a replacement car. We started looking at the Tesla 4x4. Two things convinced us it was a non-starter (no pun intended). One was the concern of getting stuck being unable to recharge it. The other was the battery/batteries seem to be so 'buried' in the vehicle that replacement / repair would seem to be either extremely difficult to impossible. In other respects, the claimed reliability seemed extremely impressive but, with a 'dead' battery, it is just a pile of junk.

We are currently looking at a couple of hybrids- a Merc and the Outlander. At the moment I'm in the early stages but the Outlander at least has a long warranty on the batteries (8 years for 70%) plus you have the petrol engine at worst. The Merc warranty is much less 'impressive', as is the performance- at least on paper.

We tend to keep our cars a long time, we buy one we like and 'get comfortable with it'- our current 4x4 is 11 years old and, having been 'looked after' will last several more years I am sure if we want it to- not least as he have several vehicles.

[Dave Plowman (News)]

Both mine have air-con. I hardly ever use it. Unlike the heater.

[Chris Whelan]

[...]

I never used to, but my current car has climate control, and if left on auto runs the A/C pretty much all the time. It provides a reasonably stable temperature, and doesn't mist up easily, so I just leave it like that.

Chris

[Dave Plowman (News)]

Yes - my newer car has climate control. But also an AC defeat button marked 'ECO'.

[MrCheerful]

Petrol IS very dangerous, but it is a known danger, I am merely summarising a couple of ideas that occurred to me, hydrogen in the domestic market is not a known danger, and given its amazing powers to burn really well, I for one would want a lot of likely problems to be thoroughly sorted before (if ever) it becomes mainstream.

[Tim Streater]

One plus for hydrogen is that when it burns, the flame is not so dangerous to be near (an explosion requires a mixture). This is because the flame is not luminous, unlike a hydrocarbon flame which is, and which therefore radiates a lot of heat sideways. You wouldn't have wanted to be near one of those Buncefield tanks.

However, no one has yet indicated in what form teh hydrogen is in the car. Liquid (seems unlikely), but if as compressed gas, at what pressure?

[The Natural Philosopher]

Yes. They are a lot safer.

Anything that detonates at car tank level is a big bang.

But methane and LPG are a bit less likely to, and no nearly as laeky as hydrogen