Slightly OT: Petrol or Diesel?

Which is preferable these days, for economy: petrol or diesel?
My friend reckons diesel still, but I wonder about that, since the price of diesel is now higher than petrol, and since dealers are still charging a premium on the price of diesel vehicles.
[The fact that car dealers charge a premium for diesel vehicles is not necessarily a guide to their being superior -- rather, that customers are willing to pay more.]
Ta John
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On Wed, 24 Jul 2013 09:04:35 +0100, Another John wrote:

How long's a piece of string?
What _real world_ MPG do each get? What's the purchase/depreciation difference? What's the maintenance score on each? Not just routine, but with an adjustment factor for likely other failures. F'rinstance, DMFs/DPFs can get very expensive, very quickly. As can mis-fuelling a common-rail diesel.
Work each of those out to pence-per-mile, then figure in the annual mileage, and you'll have an answer.
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wrote:

It depends on what type of engine you have.
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On 24/07/2013 09:04, Another John wrote:

The answer will vary from case to case. You can calculate the difference in cost of fuel per mile from the manufacturer's figures fairly easily. You then need to modify that by a factor that allows for the difference between what mpg you get in practice, as compared to the manufacturer's figures, on whatever car you drive now and hope it is much the same. Then you need to divide the extra cost of the vehicle by the number of miles you expect to do before changing the car.
Looking at my next car, I can justify the extra £1,200 for diesel, but not the extra £3,000 for a hybrid, on fuel savings.

It is generally a reflection of the difference in the cost of building the two types of engine. Diesel engines need to be a lot more sturdy than petrol.
Colin Bignell
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On Wed, 24 Jul 2013 09:23:28 +0100, Nightjar wrote:

For new cars, p'raps.
But I think he meant for used cars - which is entirely down to market factors, supply and demand. The truth is that Joe Average firmly believes that a diesel is inevitably going to cost buttons to run whilst a petrol will rape your wallet daily. With more and more personal DPF experiences, that's already starting to change - and will only continue to do so.
I'd suggest that buying a nearish-new used diesel now would be a great way to learn about steep depreciation.
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On 24/07/2013 10:10, Adrian wrote: ...

The best way to learn that is to buy new and watch the value plummet as you drive out of the dealership.
Colin Bignell
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On Mon, 29 Jul 2013 23:48:15 +0100, Vir Campestris wrote:

It will. The cat is a part of the MOT, and has been required fitment to all new petrol cars for over 20 years.
DPFs and EGR are not required fitment to new cars, and their presence isn't checked in the MOT.
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On 30/07/2013 09:31, Adrian wrote:

I believe the current (or intended) ruling goes along the lines of - If the vehicle was manufactured with a DPF it must be present. The EGR is there to deliberately mess up the engine by reducing it's combustion temperature (making it less efficient) to reduce the amount of NOX (or whatever gas it is) that is produced by higher combustion temperature. The super-fine extremely high pressure fuel injectors increase efficiency to off-set the losses caused by EGR inefficiency.
Well that's how I understood the madness anyway. :¬)
So I'd be worried if the DPF was cut-out and replaced by straight pipe but to all intents and purposes my friends DPF is still in situ. however the gradually deterioration marshmallow interior that will always slowly block over time has been removed and the Engine management re-programed to prevent it throwing a wobbly. Same with EGR. It's still "there" just blanked off and re-programmed to not be there.
8)
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On Wed, 31 Jul 2013 18:19:40 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

Not me. The law, implemented through VOSA.

The tester's opinion comes into play on some reasons for rejection. But VOSA have a clear-cut appeals process for where you think somebody's making things up. Read the tester's handbook (the link above), and you'll know exactly what constitutes a fail.

If you maintained your car properly, the time of the MOT would be irrelevant, since it wouldn't need "fixing". The MOT ain't a once-a-year high-water mark. It's a basic minimum "Is this heap of crap fit to be on a road" filter.
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On 31/07/13 18:25, Adrian wrote:

If you had bothered to read what I wrote, I did that appeal anyway. The matters were not matters of opinion. They were matters of fact. there were issues, but they were not failure issues. Rusty fixing screws om a number plate are not reasons to fail a car. Nor is a broken exhaust hangar. The MOT is concerned with cars that are unsafe: It is not unsafe to have a perfectly well supported exhaust that is only putting a little extra stress on the other mountings. Cuts in tyre treads are acceptable if the belting is not exposed. There is no opinion in any of that. either the belting is expsed or it aint.

I do maintain it properly. But the MOT was 6 months away from the annual service. Now they are all nicely lined up.
Only the tax runs out at Christmas :-)
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Ineptocracy

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On Wed, 31 Jul 2013 18:38:36 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

Could easily be.
6.3.1 A registration plate: b. so insecure that it is likely to fall off d. faded, dirty, delaminated, deteriorated or obscured, (for example by a towbar) so that it is likely to be misread or is not easily legible by a person standing approximately 20 metres to the front/rear of the vehicle

Could easily be.
7.1.1 An exhaust system not adequately supported

Could easily be.
4.1.D.1.a. A tyre has a cut the length of which is in excess of 25 mm or 10% of section width, whichever is greater, deep enough to reach the ply or cords.
That's in addition to the rejection for the belting being explicitly exposed, btw.

So it should just waltz through the ticket, then.
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On 31/07/13 18:57, Adrian wrote:

It does, if I take it to the better garage and avoid the ripoff dealer.
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Ineptocracy

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On Wed, 31 Jul 2013 20:04:18 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

Why on earth would you go to a franchised dealer for _anything_ other than warranty claims, anyway?
A small village garage I used to know well did all the MOTs for the local big-name chain BMW dealer, anyway - just wasn't worth 45min of their workshop for the capped price.
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On 31/07/13 20:07, Adrian wrote:

It was a long story, but essentially I wanted excellent customer service. The dealer is part of a group who have been excellent in the past, in other branches, and just 'sort stuff out at reasonable cost' , supply courtesy cars and I was due to go into hospital to get a bollock removed two days later.
Instead of the hassle free experience I had a bloody nightmare.
So post op instead of resting and enjoying the pain killers, I was rushing around dealing with garages and having to drive the spare car around. And then there was the chemo..

tends to be the way.
When the VOSA man came he just drove me home,. left me there, and collected me when he had finished. And I drove it back. All at the nearest MOT station. Rather nice of him
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Ineptocracy

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Once, when using a non-franchised dealer, I got charged for time and mileage to collect the necessary part - from the franched dealer's stores.
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On 24/07/2013 09:04, Another John wrote:

New or second-hand? What mileage do you do?
FWIW I replaced my main car, previously petrol, with one of the last non common rail diesels. Next time I will probably go back to petrol, betting that the risk of a large bill on a common rail for ECU, injectors, etc. offsets the reduced economy.
At one time I reckoned that ignition faults on petrol cars gave diesel another "edge" but I don't think this is true any more.
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Yep this is exactly why I bought a diesel 20 years ago. Ran it for 13 years until I wrote it off in a prang.
But this reason is no longer a consideration and I wouldn't buy one now
tim
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On 24/07/13 09:31, newshound wrote:

I cant say I have had any problems with any diesels I have had. One limped home witha split turbo hose. It aslo had a fuel pump die (60,000 miles). I have had more problems with petrol always.
But really. apart from fuel pump or batteryfailures its rare for any modern engine to let you down.
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I changed my 4.0 litre V8 petrol Land Rover Defender for a 2.4 turbo diesel. The latter is quite a bit cheaper to run even though I ran the V8 on LPG, but then it was an automatic.
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bert

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I think over here we see special rates of congestion charges being taken away for Diesels etc, due one assumes to the particulate issue.
Brian
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