Hi,
I need to install an extra plug socket beneath the kitchen worktop for a dishwasher. Pretty straight forward job, but would it be ok to take it from the cooker feed as this would be the neatest and easiest solution for me. Would an extra fuse be required in line with the new socket?
Marky P.
Hi Marky
Not sure if it breaks Part P rules but it's decidedly bad practice to add a spur to a spur (even if the cooker spur is high capacity). It would not be isolated with all the other sockets which could be misleading to the unwary. Dishwashers can be a very heavy load and I'd encourage you to incorporate the new socket into your ring main.
Stuart
One of the more knowledgable regulars on here (John Rumm perhaps??) explained that having an arbitrarily complex set of spurs-off-spurs is fine /provided/ all the cabling is done appropriately for the full capacity of the fuse that the spur is connected to.
Of course, if the dishwasher and the cooker exceed the spur capacity - then the fuse (oh all right, MCB) will go.
A little note on the socket might be a good idea.
Part P says you cant just do it on your own, as it is in the Kitchen, but yes, it can be done.
What rating is the MCB for the cooker circuit?
It sounds like appallingly bad practice.
Can't see why. Technically, the cooker circuit is a radial circuit, not a spur. Its cable will be protected by the MCB if it has been installed correctly.
You need to protect the cable feeding the new socket. That can be done with an FCU, fused suitably.
Part P still says you aren't allowed to do it yourself...but then, so what?
Simply because someone comes to work on a socket. They see five sockets and go to the CU and remove/turn off the ring main. Return to the kitchen and eventually find their way to the still live socket!
Yes they should have checked each socket, but who does?
It can be argued both ways. The convenince of having one socket in a strategic situation that is not part of the ring main, or a potentially dangerous situation waiting for the unwary.
I had one of these sockets for fifteen years but got rid of it last year because I did forget it was live! I was stupid, it hurt, it won't now.
I too can't see how it is bad, after all, some cooker outlets have a 13A socket on them anyway. If the MCB is 32A or below, I would use 4mm in the OP's situation (the new socket will be close to the outlet, as the max continuous draw is 26A, assuming it's a double socket) (I expect you could use 2.5mm, the same as a spur of a 32A ring would use, it depends on likely use - if it is just one dishwasher, then I can't see how 2.5mm won't be acceptable here, but if there is any chance this new spur will be spurred off again in the future, then I would use 4mm.
If the MCB is over 32A, then I would be inclined to put a fused spur between the cooker outlet and the socket, but as anything plugged into the socket will be fused, it probably isn't necessary.
I would label both the socket and the MCB accordingly, to ensure the correct MCB is turned off when any future work is carried out.
Toby... (Not a qualified electrician)
Then just lable it accrdongly - if it is a hidden socket (behind a dishwasher, for example), use a permanant marker on the socket, so it can't be removed accidently.
Simple really.
I had this argument with the guy doing the periodic inspection on my place. The former immersion switch was in the bedroom, nice handy place and height for a vac socket, so I changed it to a socket and at the CU end moved the cable into the ring MCB making it a spur. He backed down but originally argued that I should have left it on its own 16A MCB, which - for the reason you cite - I thought a seriously bad idea.
40A
Marky P.
Thanks everyone for the advice. I may just stick with my original plan of using the ring main, to be on the safe side. Just means a visible wire above the worktop, but it can be covered with trunking.
Cheers again,
Marky P.
Me!
I test any socket switch, ceiling rose I am about to work on with a volt stick, then remove the fuse or turn off the breaker, then check with the volt stick again.
And me. I generally plug something into the socket before switching off, so I can observe the light (or whatever) going out. But often, I just turn off the master isolator anyway - why not? There's probably a few more egregious bodges that could leave something live even though the table lamp plugged into it goes out, and it's not like I have any equipment that needs 24/7 power at all costs.
Pete
The normal way of doing this in the US seems to be to short out the socket and see which breaker trips. This does account for a small but noticable number of total building loss incidents.
Don't forget to install some socket plugs while you're at it. You don't want to do half a job.
But somewhat safer than finding out the circuit protection is faulty while you are asleep. Maybe more people should do it? There could be a market in 13A test plugs? (Solder a nail across the pins!)
If it's a hidden socket, that makes the scenario even worse, as it's quite possible that someone might switch off the circuit and not even see the label.
Better to attach a large, hi-vis, waterproof A4 warning label securely to the front of the dishwasher.
Or better yet, wire the socket properly!
David
If they were working on this socket they would, unless they were blind or stupid. If they were working on the dishwasher, how likley is it someone would not unplug it first?
Don't be rediculas
I didn't suggest the socket was going to be wired improperly. In the OP's case, the socket would be powering his dishwasher, assuming the OP wants to work on the dishwasher, he should unplug the dishwasher rather than tripping off the entire circuit, if he was to work on the socket, he would need to move the dishwasher to access it, therefore see the warning - I really fail to see your point here...
AFAIK, it is good practice to have a separate, non RCD protected circuit for your fridge, freezer and alarm, so if you go on holiday, a trip of the RCD won't spoil your freezer full of food, or power down the alarm system (which would cause the external bell to sound for 20 minutes after the battery in the panel has depleted) - I assume you thing this is bad practice too?
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