Combi fans: is bigger better

"Fred" wrote in message news: snipped-for-privacy@news.btopenworld.com...

Fred, read on, if you haven't read this already:

Go for a high flow combi, if the water mains flow is OK, such as:

  1. Vaillant AquaPlus
  2. Alpha CB50
  3. Worcester-Bosch Greenstar 40kW (condensing boiler)

A combi explanation for you....

Firstly, a combi is a "combination" of the heating and water system in one case, eliminating external tanks and cylinders, and generally supply hot water at high main pressure. To confuse a little, some can run at very low pressures and even off tanks. Generally most are fed from the mains. It is generally a matter of mounting the boiler and connect up the pipes. The expert designers have done the hard work for you and put all in one case.

There are three types of combi:

1) The Infinitely Continuous Combi -

Heats cold mains water instantly as it runs through the combi. It never runs out of hot water. This is the most common type of combi, generally having lower flowrates than Nos 2 & 3 below. The largest flow rate instant combi is a two bathroom model, 22 litres/min ECO-Hometec. Being a condenser it is very economical too.

formatting link
Unvented Cylinder Combi -

An unvented cylinder is a similar to a conventional cylinder but run off the high-pressure cold mains. A combi with an integral unvented cylinder has approx 60 litre cylinder heated to approx 80C, with a quick recovery coil that takes all the boilers output. A fast acting cylinder thermostat ensures the boiler pumps heat into the cylinder ASAP with a recovery rate from cold around 5-8 mins (Ariston claim 8 mins). The 80C water is blended down to about 45-50C. e.g's, Ariston Genus 27 Plus, Glow Worm, Powermax, Alpha CB50.

3) Infinately Continuous/Unvented cylinder combi -

An example being the Alpha CB50, a combination of both having a two stage flowrate, of high flowrate when using the stored water with an automatic flow regulator switching in to reduce flow to an invinately continuous flowrate of approx 11 litres/min.

formatting link
Heat Bank Combi -

Incoming water is instantly heated running through a plate heat exchanger (as is most instantaneous combi's) that takes its heat from a "domestic hot water only" store of water at approx 80C (instantaneous combi's take the heat from a heat-exchanger heater via the burner). A fast acting thermostat ensures the boiler pumps all of its heat into the store ASAP with a recovery rate about 5-8 mins from cold. The 80C water is blended down to about

45-50C. They are generally two stage flow rates, in that when the thermal store is exhausted it reverts to what the burner can produce, which is approx 11-12 litre/minute. e.g. Vokera & Worcester floor standing models (standard washing machine sizes).

N.B. The heat bank is a variation of a thermal store, but is "not" a thermal store in the conventional sense in that a coil carrying cold mains water runs though a store of hot water kept at about 80C. Heat-banks are far more efficient and give higher flowrates than conventional coiled thermal stores. The stainless steel plate heat-exchangers do not scale up so easily.

5) Combined Primary Storage Unit

(Not classed as a combi, but a derivative of a combi, but still a one box solution, so still in the same family)

These are a combination of a large thermal store, or heat bank, and boiler in one casing. The units are large (larger than standard washing machine size) and floor mounted. The heating is taken off the thermal store, which in many cases the DHW taken off the store using a plate heat-exchanger (heat-bank). Unlike the Heat-bank in 3) above the thermal store supplies heating "and" DHW, giving the "combined" to the title. They are available from 1 to 2.5 bathroom models. Gledhill do an excellent condensing version, the Gulfsream 2000.

formatting link
2), 3), 4) & 5) have high flowrates. No. 1 "generally" has low flowrates but there are always exceptions and some can be high - e.g. the ECO-Hometec infinitely continuous combi, actually has a very high flowrate. Nos 2), 3), 4) & 5) use stored water, but in different ways. Unlike No. 1 "some" versions will eventually run cold, but that takes quite a time, hence some are referred to as "two bathroom" models, having the ability to fill two baths with very fast recovery rates. As hot water is being drawn off the high rating burner is also reheating. Very rare do these combi's run out of hot water in average use. When taking one shower the burner may be re-heating faster than what can be drawn-off. No. 3) above uses stored water but will not run out of hot water (high and low flowrates). Most versions of No. 4) above are two stage flowrate models (high and low flowrates) and will also not run out of hot water.

There are combi models that give hot water and heating simultaneously as Combined Primary Storage Units do. Most don't as they are hot water priority.

Reply to
IMM
Loading thread data ...

Where are you going to find a domestic combi able to deliver 30lpm?

.andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

Reply to
Andy Hall

average bath is 100 litres with 2/3 to 3/4 of that hot and thebnrst cold water. So 70/5 = 14. That is 14 litres/min, which is well short of ECO-Hometecs 22 litres/min.

Reply to
IMM

Like the fact your heating would be off all day as a result of said teenagers using DHW all the time?

Reply to
John Rumm

No, that's a dribble in the bottom.

Your assumption regarding 2/3 to 3/4 hot to cold ratio assumes spring to autumn water temperatures. During the winter, the entire combi output will be needed. At 14lpm and 150 litres - a more realistic volume for the bath - filling will take over ten minutes.

.andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

Reply to
Andy Hall

message

Firstly 100 litres is typical for a modern bath. Secondly, the Worcester Bosch Greenstar 40 at 16 litres/min will do. Thridly if you have 150 litres get it replaced as you are adding to global warming.

Reply to
IMM

No it isn't. I measured one and posted the results recently.

Do what and who? Better than 11 or 13lpm I suppose,

What on earth are you talking about?

.andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

Reply to
Andy Hall

Oh my God! He is at it again.

Clear indication of poor comprehension.

He can't even get that. You are consuming more resources than what you need to, so are totally irresponsible.

Reply to
IMM

In message , IMM writes

DIMM, you're consuming precious oxygen, please decease

Reply to
raden

You don't need 30 lpm, Andy. IMM has said so. Why don't you trust his judgement?

Reply to
Dave Plowman (News)

It seems to me that the prize for greenhouse gas emission should go to you........

.andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

Reply to
Andy Hall

Wow....

Reply to
IMM

Maxie, do you think I am going to cruise in on your Din Lin the far eastern luscious lovely? Believe she is all yours. I would never take her away from you.

Reply to
IMM

I am not a fan of combi boilers as they provide no back up, which you do get with an indirect cylinder and immersion heater, and the flow rates are a bit poor. I have, however, now experienced my second good combi boiler. The first was in a chalet at Centre Parcs and the second at a holiday cottage in Cornwall. They were both boxes about 1m in each direction and floor mounted, and the cold pressure was high. They did work most satisfactorily, though. The answer to the question posed in the subject line is "yes" (but you still have no back-up water heating, or source of heat for the airing cupboard).

Reply to
Bob Mannix

message

An in-line instant elecric heater can be installed to supply one tap and a shower. Not expensive and easy to do.

My God not another one!!!! You can get 22 litres/minute from combi's. You can also get 9 litres/min, which you seem to think all are like that.

You have contradicted what you have said above when you said they have poor flowrates.

Reply to
IMM

But doesn't provide a hot water back up as an immersion does. If you just want some water for the washing up, boiling a kettle will do in an emergency. But not for a bath or shower.

Just as well you're not a doctor. You'd be amputating legs for a cold...

Reply to
Dave Plowman (News)

You can get 180 mph from a saloon car... is yours that quick? What you fail to allow for (yet again) is the fact that you can get 22lpm from a combi is not relevant. Most peoples experiance is of far more modest combis. That is because that is what tends to get recommended and installed by their plumbers, and that is what most people are prepared to pay for. Many people I have spoken to would not even be able to tell you the input power of the combi they have!

Note also he did say the flow rates are "a bit poor" - not "very poor" or "inadequate". For somone used to a good storage system 22 lpm *is* a bit poor in comparison.

I suggest you go and re-read the thread.

Reply to
John Rumm

Silly analogy.

It isn't? When people say they only give poor flow and many have high flows that is not relevant? Amazing. Must be third world logic.

..and I recommend they get the flow to suit tneir needs and high flows are avaiable.

Plumbers? Great for drains and gutters.

Don't gripe that your car can't do 130 mph if you bought a Lada.

They don't need to. they just want it to provide the flowrates and heat the house.

The word "poor" was there, many combi's are far from poor and are very good.

Most storage systems don't do much better, if they do. 22 l/pm will fill a

100 litre bath with 2/3 hot and the rest cold in 3 minutes and no tanks or cylinders

I suggest you don't comment on topics you obviously know nothing about.

Reply to
IMM

Some combi's do CH & DHW simultaneously. If you have teenagers in the shower for excessive periods then you need to be a form parent. They will wither in that water.

Reply to
IMM

I tend not to respond to wilful misunderstandings - thanks for doing it for me! Quite, quite and quite (to your points). I meant (and you, at least, could clearly understand) that I had only found adequate flow rates from rather large combis that would be impractical to install in my/most home(s). In their place (for example a restored listed building rented out where a "conventional" system was undesirable and the *large* combi could be put outside) it did a fine job.

Reply to
Bob Mannix

HomeOwnersHub website is not affiliated with any of the manufacturers or service providers discussed here. All logos and trade names are the property of their respective owners.