Bosch dishwasher filling problem


remarked:

Bullshit.
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload

Suit yourself, but there's something to be learnt here. I took the machine to bits and that's what it does.
I suppose the argument might be that a catastrophic leak already has water all over the floor, so failing to enter a rinse cycle won't stop you getting your feet wet.
--
Roland Perry

Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
remarked:

We'll see...

All you know is that there is a flood sensor, not that it ignores flooding during the rinse cycle.

But it wouldn't if the machine stopped with an error code when a leak of any kind is detected.

There wouldn’t be any point in in having the leak detector if that was the case.
I bet you fooled yourself because of a faulty leak detector.
In fact it wouldn’t be hard to prove by deliberately putting some water where the leak detector is. But it doesn’t produce the minimal water flow during the wash phase, because that would mean that it would have to have a multi speed pump so it could pump minimally during the wash phase when a leak has been detected. And there is no point in having a wash cycle like that which doesn’t wash properly anyway.
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
On Fri, 28 Nov 2014 04:57:47 +0000, Johny B Good

One couple we know seem quite unconcerned that while they load the washer their dog is also sticking its head in and actually does quite a good job of licking the items clean. Now after a wash cycle it should not make any difference but somehow I'm glad we don't get invited to eat there.
G.Harman
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload

I thought everyone used dogs for the "pre-wash"?
Tim
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
wrote:

I expect a lot do, but it is the thought of them having just licked thier arse or another dogs or even eating dog shit that is a bit off putting.
G.Harman
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload

I do know because I ran the machine through numerous wash cycles, while fiddling with all the sensors (having stripped the side off the washer), to see what they did.

The catastrophic leak will have dumped all the water currently in the machine, on the floor, mid-wash-cycle. The leak detector won't be able to predict a hose coming off, or the sump splitting.

The point is to force the user to investigate a small leak.

You don't have to do that - it's a big disc of expanded polystyrene 'floating' (in either air or water) in the bottom of the chassis. You can push it up and down to simulate the effect of water.

The minimal-water observed when there's a "failed to fill" wash cycle is the dregs in the sump, which are there because the pump doesn't completely empty it plus the flow-back from the 'uphill' bit of the drain pipe, which doesn't have a non-return valve upstream of the pump.
The correct sequence of operation is for the pump to operate briefly to make sure the sump is as empty as possible, followed by the inlet system trickling water in via the water softener. If you listen carefully you can hear the gurgling of the inlet water through the various pipes, before the main circulation pump starts thrashing the water around.
--
Roland Perry

Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload

Like hell you do.

But you can't have seen it do the wash phase with very little water pressure during the wash phase because it doesn’t have a variable water pressure pump.

BULLSHIT. The first time if sees water in what you call the chassis, stopping everything with an error code doesn’t see anything like dumping all the water on the floor.
AND the OP never saw anything like all the water on the floor either.

Doesn’t need to PREDICT a damned thing, just detect water in what you call the chassis and stop with an error code.

Even sillier than you usually manage. You have claimed that it doesn’t do a damned thing about water all over the floor during the wash phase and just carrys on regardless and dumps the water used in the rinse phase on the floor as well.
Makes a hell of a lot more sense to stop with an error code when any water is detected in what you call the chassis and have the manual report that that error code means that there has been a leak.

And when you do that, you won't see the dishwasher reduce the water pressure during the wash phase because the pump can't do that. And see it do the rinse phase as normal.

Why should it fail to fill when it detects water in what you call the chassis ?

BULLSHIT.

There is no water softener.

Still makes no sense to carry on regardless with fuck all water in the wash phase when water is detected in what you call the chassis and to then completely ignore the water detector in what you call the chassis and do the rinse phase as normal and dump all that water on the floor.
And the OP never said that he gets water all over the floor in the rinse phase.
ALL he said is that he gets fuck all water pumped around in the wash phase.
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload

The reason it has very little water pressure is because it has very little WATER. The pump is trying to circulate the dregs in the sump, and the result is only a dribble getting as far as the rotating arm at the top of the washer.

It's two different scenarios. One is a slight leak which the floating detector picks up and stops it filling at the start of a cycle. The other is (eg) a hose splitting mid wash.

That's right - he hasn't got a catastrophic leak.
[Snip lots of stuff that's completely misunderstood the failure symptoms].

See above, it's not a multi-pressure pump, but the regular pump having nothing very much to pump.

To avoid pouring water into a washing machine with a leak. I'd prefer it to give a visible/audible error indication, but that's not how it works.
If the user then subverts the system by pouring a couple of pans-full of water in by hand, it carries on (with some water available to pump now) and completes the rinses too.

Nope, that's all completely correct.

What do YOU call the thing with salt in it?

It doesn't carry on regardless, you have to put water in by hand.

What do YOU call the part of the washer that comprises the floor and the frame which holds the rest of it up?

The leak detector is for small leaks. In my washer there was about half a cup-full in the float-compartment when I first started debugging it.

I know. You've made that bit up.

I know, and it's that symptom which I've been explaining.
--
Roland Perry

Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload

Yes, that's exactly what's going on, because the only water in the sump is that left over from the last wash.

I've observed it many times, while experimenting with my 'broken' washer.

It's easy; you open the door a crack and can see how much water is splashing around. And it sounds quite different too - the pump is quite clearly "gasping" for water, rather than there being a "sloshing around" noise.

Where is it then? On my washer's control panel there's only one light, called "End"; plus the lights in the four different programme buttons which merely say which one you've selected).

As you've been told several times now, the washing cycle commences with no more water in it than was left from the previous wash.
Over to you...

There's me and the OP. And doing online searches the only solution people offered was that the inlet valve was faulty. But if that's the case, it wouldn't operate properly to fill with rinse water. And I took it out and tested it, and it was working OK.

It could, because the outlet pipe is about two inches under water while it's washing. The exhaust pump is a very simple centrifugal one (the same as on clothes washers), and if you took off the output pipe, water would flow through it by gravity.

Mine doesn't have one.

Bully for you.

I don't need to measure it, I can clearly see that no water is added by observing the transparent piping on the side of the washer.

Mine does (and apparently so does the OP's).
--
Roland Perry

Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload

Bullshit. If that was happening the pump wouldn’t last long doing the whole of the wash phase with that little water and the machine would detect that the heating of the water wasn’t working as well.
And its completely trivial to simulate how much water is in the machine in the wash phase by turning off the water supply completely so it can't add any water at all. You don’t in fact see it do the wash phase at all if you do that because it knows that there isnt any water in the machine. Its not stupid enough to fuck the pump by pumping just air for the whole wash phase.

It took you that long to work out that it was getting water into what you call the chassis ? I don’t believe you.

Same place all the lights are.

Even sillier than you usually manage. It in fact pumps out the dishwasher when it starts up.

You don’t know that the OP is seeing his dishwasher doing the entire wash phase with no water added at all after its pumped out to the outlet as it starts. In fact we know that it has more water than that because he does see some water in the dishwasher when he opens the door in the wash phase.

How odd that no tech ever said that the problem is a not very bad leak.

Bullshit.

Not when its got a leak and that means that what remains in the dishwasher overnight leaks out before the dishwasher is started.

But there is fuck all water left in the dishwasher at the end of the use, so there is fuck all to drain back in there overnight and so fuck all to leak into what you call the chassis.

If no water is added at all, there isnt anything to pump thru the rotating arms.

Then there must be a problem that prevents the dishwasher being emptied at the end of its use.

You don’t know that. ALL you know is that it doesn’t spray as much during the wash phase as it does in the rinse phase. You don’t even know that his Bosch is anything like yours either.
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
On Mon, 01 Dec 2014 15:41:39 +0000, Roland Perry wrote:

So, it's a different model. My Bosch dishwasher has lights for water supply, salt and rinse aid.
--
My posts are my copyright and if @diy_forums or Home Owners' Hub
wish to copy them they can pay me £30a message.
  Click to see the full signature.
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload

Clearly. The problem is that Ron seems to think that because his a different model, mine isn't broken.

Previous washers of mine have had lights for salt and rinse aid.
--
Roland Perry

Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload

I clearly said that yours is broken, but that your claim that it furiously pumps for the whole wash phase with no added water at all is clearly just plain wrong because there would be nothing to pump at all if it actually did that.
And you have absolutely no idea what model the OP has either.
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload

The pump's unlikely to be damaged by running with a low water supply, and there is some water in the pump itself.
When this fault condition happens, it's fairly obvious because the dishes don't get washed. And when you stand next to it you can't hear the wash-water sloshing around.

It'll be heating the little water there is, and then turning off. It won't have enough intelligence in the controller to think "hmm, that heated up faster than normal".

Yes, that would be one way.

It's pumping the residual water in the sump. That's enough to produce a trickle from the rotating arm, but not enough to actually do any washing.

It didn't take long. As soon as it stopped washing the dishes properly I took some time to stand next to it after I'd started it (rather than leaving the kitchen) and it was obvious from the lack of "sloshing noise" that the water fill wasn't working.
For a few days I worked around this by opening it up when it had been running about a minute, and added water by hand.
Then I took a day off work and removed the dishwasher from under the counter, took the side off, and started debugging what was wrong with it. It was then that I found the flood detector, and saw it had some water under it.

Which is on the front of a different model!

It doesn't pump it all out, and as I've told you before there's the back-flow water that was in the uphill bit of the drain pipe.

What he described is the same as I observe. The residual water in the sump.

One online resource mentioned the flood detector, but in general the "help" sites are about as useful as people saying "re-install Windows" when anything goes wrong with your Windows PC.

Depends how serious a leak. It could be as little as a drip every ten seconds.

That's not the case. There's more than you imagine.

We won't make any progress if you continue to be in denial about the residual water.
ps. Still waiting to hear what name you give the water softener.
--
Roland Perry

Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload

Bullshit with your stupid claim that it adds no water at all because it sees water in the chassis when it starts after it pumps what has drained back overnight out the outlet.

Not when its pumped what has drained back over night out the outlet and has not added any water at all when it detects water in the chassis.

I just don’t believe that Bosch is actually stupid enough to go thru the entire wash phase with no water at all in the dishwasher. And then do the rinse phase as usual, even tho its detected water in the chassis.
Particularly as NO ONE has ever reported that massive design flaw world wide.

There is no water because all dishwashers pump what they can out the outlet as they start to get rid of the water that has drained back into the sump overnight.
You claim that it adds no water at all because it detects water in the chassis. So there would be no water at all.

There is no water to pump.

And if you did that you would find that the dishwasher isnt actually stupid enough to go do the entire wash phase with no water in the machine at all.

There is no residual water in the sump. ALL dishwasher pump the sump to the outlet when they start, to get rid of any water in the sump because that has drained back with the machine idle and could well have been sitting in the sump for days or weeks and the last thing you want is to have that stagnant water being pumped around the dishes you are trying to clean.

BULLSHIT.

And yet you claimed to have done that 'many times'

Mad.

It does actually, all that has drained back into the sump since the last use.
Dishwashers have to do that because what is in the sump may well have been there for days or weeks and the last thing you want to do is have the stagnant water being pumped around the dishes you are trying to clean.

I don’t believe that either. It may well be in the PUMP but not in the SUMP.

ONLY as far as less than normal water flow in the wash phase is concerned.

You don’t know that in his case.
Or that he has the same model you have either.

There is a lot more than one that does that.

That is just plain wrong with the sites that sell parts for dishwashers.

That isnt going to be detected by the flood sensor because the most that can ever end up in the chassis is what is in the sump after the final pump out. Fuck all.
That isnt going to produce a drip every 10 seconds with no pressure behind it, just the minimal amount that drains back into the sump overnight. That is going to see a hell of a lot more than a drip every 10 seconds when the sump is full and doing the rinse phase.

Wrong. I am currently running mine on 6' wide concrete slab outside the back of the house while I decided that it would do a good job on the full sized beer bottles I use to brew beer in, so I can see how much water it pumps out of the sump when I start the dishwasher.
Its fuck all.

I'm not in denial, I KNOW that there is fuck all in the sump when the dishwasher starts, just what drains back after the last use. Fuck all.
And its completely trivial to prove that there is nothing to pump by turning the water supply off so you know that none got added and see the dishwasher stop and whine about no water too.
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload

Wrong wrong wrong for the umpteenth time. There's enough residual water in the sump to do that.

I know that his symptoms are exactly the same as mine.
Are you yet in a position to suggest what we might do to fix the machines?
ps Still waiting for your name for the water softener.
--
Roland Perry

Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload

Yes you are.

BULLSHIT. If there was, not using the dishwasher for a week or more would see the dishwasher use stagnant water that has been the sump for weeks. No dishwasher designer is ever stupid enough to do it like that.

Doesn't say a damned thing about why it does that.

I already did, work out why it is doing that and fix it, stupid.
And I pointed out how to check if his dishwasher actually has any water in the chassis and how to see if it adds any water at the start by turning off the water supply and see if it continues to behave the same way. Bet it doesn't. Bet it stops when it detects that there is no water available.
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload

That's what happens. I've tested it several times.

The drain pipe does up at least a foot and a half in most installations (to avoid siphoning effects). The water in that foot and a half falls back into the sump when the drain pump stops.

Sigh. The sump water.

You must ask them why this is what happens.

Two of us in this thread.

Not all of it.

It's very obvious when you look at the transparent inlet piping that it adds nothing at all.

Only that much water described above.

Only that much water described above.

Only that much water described above.

There is.
Have you actually looked??

They pump out as much as they can, but it's not all of it.
Without a non-return valve on the pipe, please explain how nothing flows back into the sump.
It's probably why they often do a "pre-rinse" as much to get the old water diluted and out as to remove the crud from the new load of washing.

The thing I did many times was observe the wash cycles having taken the thing apart.

It gets the dishes washed.

Not all of it.

That's part of the pre-wash thing.

It was in the drain pipe, but flows back through the pump when it stops,

But there's more in the sump than you acknowledge.

Indeed, that's because the pump isn't capable of draining the last pint or two. And it can't do it at the start of a new wash cycle any more that it could at the end of the previous one.

I suggest you take off the outflow pipe and see how wet your feet get.

But the models which the OP and I have don't have that function built in.
--
Roland Perry

Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload

I bet its actually got an intermittent fault with the water supply system and you fooled yourself.

I left mine lying on the concrete floor when I was running it on the concrete slab at the back of the house to work out whether it was worth installing and get no syphoning effect at all.

If it did that, not using the dishwasher for a week or more would see it use that stagnant water when its used again. Bosch doesn’t design dishwashers that badly.

Heavy breathing won't save your bacon.

There is no sump water. ALL dishwashers pump out the sump right at the start to get rid of what may have drained back into the sump from the main washing chamber after the dishwasher was used the last time, so there is no stagnant water in the sump to be pumped around the dishes.

No point, it doesn’t do that.

BULLSHIT. You don’t know that the OP even has any water in the chassis at all.

You are just plain wrong.

For a different reason, the solenoid is fucked etc.

Pig ignorantly claimed above, actually.

Pig ignorantly claimed above, actually.

Pig ignorantly claimed above, actually.

BULLSHIT.

Yep, and since I supplied the water from the garden tap, and managed to forget to turn the tap on occasionally, the dishwasher just stops and whines about the lack of water.
Its not actually stupid enough to try to do the entire wash phase with no water except what allegedly remains in the sump.

Bullshit. If it wasn’t, you'd have stagnant water being used in the first use of the dishwasher after not being used for a week or two.

Not all cycles have a prerinse.

If that was true all the cycles would have a pre rinse and they don’t.
And it makes much more sense to just add water to the sump and then empty it anyway, no point in spraying the dishes with that stagnant water.
I haven't seen a dishwasher that doesn’t do that, pumps the sump before it does anything at all.

All of it, and the water it adds and pumps out before it does any spraying at all.

Wrong. There is no prewash with some cycles.
There is ALWAYS a pump of the sump before it does anything and water is added while its pumping so that whatever stagnant water is ALL pumped out.

And gets pumped out when the pump is run again before it does anything else, with added water to get all the stagnant water out before it turns the pump off and continues to add water to use.

There is fuck all compared with what is there in the wash phase.

Its nothing even remotely like a pint or two.

Wrong when it adds more water and pumps both what remained in the sump and what is added out before turning the pump off and filling the sump before it ever pumps any water thru the rotating arms.

I already told you that it was never on, its just lying on the concrete.

My feet don’t get wet at all.

You have absolutely no idea about that with the OP's dishwasher.
And ALL dishwashers are obviously capable of stopping when they detect that the sump never fills.
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload

HomeOwnersHub.com is a website for homeowners and building and maintenance pros. It is not affiliated with any of the manufacturers or service providers discussed here. All logos and trade names are the property of their respective owners.