Bathroom wiring questions

Hi all
I am doing our bathroom up and we are having a cupboard with a couple sinks on top. The kids want to get electric tooth brushes so am wondering what my options are for providing power to the sink area for then to plug their toothbrushes in.
I assume there is no way of putting a socket on the wall between the sinks? Would putting it in the cupboard below the sinks be an option?
Also, I am fitting a spa bath. It has an IP55 box underneath to wire the pumps up so I plan to run the power from here to a socket somewhere. Can I put the socket for this in the cupboard too or should it be outside of the bathroom?
Thanks in advance all
Lee.
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On 03/09/17 08:39, snipped-for-privacy@yahoo.co.uk wrote:

Bathroom shaver socket is the usual way - can be installed in Zone 2 over the basins if you like.
http://electrical.theiet.org/wiring-matters/53/section-701/index.cfm
"Shaver supply units The minimum degree of protection for equipment installed in zones 1 and 2 is IPX4, or IPX5 where water jets are likely to be used for cleaning purposes. An exception to this requirement is a shaver supply unit complying with BS EN 61558-2-5 which, although it does not meet the requirements of IP4X, is permitted in zone 2 but must be located where direct spray from showers is unlikely. This type of shaver supply unit is the only type that is permitted in a bathroom or shower room."
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Thanks very much Tim. So this would imply that in the cupboard would be tr eated as zone 1 (likening it to under the bath but does not need tool to ge t to) so I couldn't have a socket in there for the spa bath but could have an IPx4 or greater switch [eg a light switch]) I could have the shaver soc kets in the cupboard for the toothbrushes though?
Also it doesn't seem to give a zone for the sink area. I have seen somethi ng that suggests best practice is 60 cm diameter above the basin should be classed as zone 1.
Is this correct?
thanks again
Lee.
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On 03/09/2017 10:47, snipped-for-privacy@nowell.me wrote:

No.
Sinks do not have zones.
You see them drawn on certain websites and on the instructions for light fittings.
No zone exists.
--
Adam

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On 03/09/2017 10:47, snipped-for-privacy@nowell.me wrote:

"Shaver supply units

What zone is the cupboard in? If its outside the zones, then normal accessories (except sockets) are ok. Shaver sockets are ok even in zone 2 allowing for the limitations mentioned by Tim above.

The zones extend away from the bath or shower, the sink itself does not not create its own zone. There are a few general rules that apply like using appropriate fittings for the location etc and a bit of common sense; so positioning accessories where they won't be splashed etc.
--
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John.
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On 03/09/17 10:47, snipped-for-privacy@nowell.me wrote:

You said "toothbrush" - so why not use the universal solution of a shaver socket?
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On 03/09/2017 08:39, snipped-for-privacy@yahoo.co.uk wrote:

The normal solution is an isolated (i.e. transformer type) shaver socket.

Only if its 3m or more from the edge of zone 2! Sonly only very large bathrooms need apply.

If the space under the bath is not generally accessible (or only accessible using a tool) then it counts as "outside the zones" and you can install the socket (or probably more appropriately) a switched fused connection unit there.
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John.
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On 03/09/2017 08:39, snipped-for-privacy@yahoo.co.uk wrote:

As others have said, a shaver socket is the usual solution.
However, presumably only the toothbrushes' chargers require mains - not the toothbrushes themselves? Modern re-chargeable toothbrushes run for many days on one charge - so the charger doesn't *need* to be in the bathroom. The kids could charge them when required in their bedrooms.
--
Cheers,
Roger
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Thanks all. Especially for the shaver socket tip. I had previously assumed the only difference between them and sockets was dual voltage :)
The shaver socket on the wall would work best but we have a small splashbac k and then huge mirror above the sinks so only place would be between the s inks and just off worktop level which seems a bit dodgy to me? So...
Looks like best option is shaver sockets in the cupboard below the sinks.
In terms of the spa bath then I guess running a feed to the cupboard and in stalling a ipx4 or better switch to switch it off (or maybe one of those du al pole things that we use to isolate the extractor fan) and then run this to the bath with a waterproof junction box under the bath for extra safety.
Sound ok?
So... Last 2 questions. 1. The bath has the metal framing connected to one of the motors via an ear th lead. However the earth from the mains connection doesn't seem to be con nected to it. I would have expected to see an earth coming out of the junct ion box to connect to the frame. Any thoughts? 2. I plan to cut into the upstairs ring main to feed this bathroom. Not a s pur buy essentially extending the ring. Any issues with this?
Thanks again for all your help
Lee.
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On 04/09/2017 08:31, snipped-for-privacy@nowell.me wrote:

Note that there are two types of shaver socket. The transformer based ones that are suitable for bathrooms (and usually offer dual voltage) and the non transformer based ones that are not suitable for bathrooms.

Another option is a shaver socket built into an over mirror based light fitting.

Yup you can have a remote switch for the bath feed if you want. You could place the switched fused connection unit in the cupboard, and then have that feed either a junction box or flex outlet the bath if you want.

I am not totally clear on exactly what setup you have here, so I will answer the more general questions...
If the motor units are double insulated (has the double square logo[1]) then they do not need an earth connection. However you would normally wire the connection point such that one is available in case the motor were changed later and the new one needed one. If needs be, the earth connection can be made of in a spare non connected terminal block.
[1] http://wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/index.php/Electrical_Glossary#1-9
If the motors do require an earth, then the earth of the circuit feeding them should be included into the supplementary bonding in the bathroom.
The metal frame of the bath itself is typically not connected to anything outside of the room itself, and hence not capable of introducing any potential into the room. As a result it does not need including in the EQ bonding.
See http://wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/index.php/Earthing_and_Bonding

No that's fine. Note the comments above about including its earth in the bonding for the room.
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John.
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On Monday, 4 September 2017 10:22:49 UTC+1, John Rumm wrote:

Connecting the bath frame to the motor frame does make it able to introduce 240v in case of fault. I would earth it & feed it from an RCD or include it in equipotential bonding.
NT
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On 09/09/2017 12:14, snipped-for-privacy@gmail.com wrote:

If the motor is class I, then its supply earth should be included in the bonding, and the motor casing itself does not need independent connection. If its class II, then its case is not an extraneous conductive path, and so bonding the bath would actually increase the risk rather than lower it.
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John.
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On Saturday, 9 September 2017 13:28:12 UTC+1, John Rumm wrote:

Whether the motor can conduct to the bath or water depends on construction details. Class 2 certainly does not preclude it. Class 2 construction is no more a panacea than the other approaches.

bonding it to what? bathroom-wide equipotential bonding or the motor case?
NT
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Hi all
I have had another look at the setup based on my new knowledge. There are 2 motors connected into a waterproof junction box. Looking at the junction b ox the incoming earth is connected to the earth going to both motors. There is then an earth wire going from the base of one to the metal framing whic h the legs are attached to. The motors have screws coming out of the bottom with thick rubber washers on. These screws then fed through a metal board where they are bolted in place. This board is attached to the metal framing .
The motors have a label on them but no mention of class 1 or 2.
So... Judging from the about it sounds like I should be fine with wiring th e mains into the junction box as normal. With the frame bonded to one motor and it in turn seems to be connected to the incoming earth.
On the junction box it has a label from manufacturers saying it is 2.1kW an d needs a 16a fuse. Is this ok to be on the ring main I plan to extend and located as a switched fused inside the cupboard.
Thanks again all
Lee.
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On Sunday, 10 September 2017 15:47:33 UTC+1, snipped-for-privacy@yahoo.co.uk wrote:

2 motors connected into a waterproof junction box. Looking at the junction box the incoming earth is connected to the earth going to both motors. The re is then an earth wire going from the base of one to the metal framing wh ich the legs are attached to. The motors have screws coming out of the bott om with thick rubber washers on. These screws then fed through a metal boar d where they are bolted in place. This board is attached to the metal frami ng.

the mains into the junction box as normal. With the frame bonded to one mot or and it in turn seems to be connected to the incoming earth.

and needs a 16a fuse. Is this ok to be on the ring main I plan to extend an d located as a switched fused inside the cupboard.

So the pumps aren't class 2, and need treating as class 1. So you need eith er RCD or equipotential bonding.
NT
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On 10/09/2017 15:47, snipped-for-privacy@yahoo.co.uk wrote:

If the motors have an earth connection in their flex, then they are class I. (generally if its metal cased and not marked as class II then its best to assume class I)

So long as the earth of the circuit feeding the motors is included in the rooms EQ bonding, then you don't need anything else. The protective conductor feeding the motor itself will serve dual purpose as both earth and bonding connection.

Its likely its an induction motor, and will have a high inrush current. Hence the need for a higher rating of fuse than nominal[1] 10A that the 2.1kW rating would suggest.
It might be worth tracking down the manual for the motor if you can to see if it actually specifies that the motor *must* have additional protection from a 16A device, or whether it is just highlighting that protection with a 13A fuse in a SFCU etc unlikely to hack it due to the high inrush.
If it specifies that it must be protected at 16A device, then it will make your task a little more interesting if you want to feed it from a spur on a 32A ring circuit. You would then probably have to use a MCB, or a HRC cartridge fuse in a suitable enclosure instead.
[1] Induction motors also tend to have non unity power factors, which can increase the actual maximum current drawn.
--
Cheers,

John.
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Thanks John.
There is no other bonding in the bathroom as all plumbing is plastic as it the bath.
Rather than a spur, I was going to break into ring on that floor and extend it to the bathroom. It is a bit of a pain as there isn't a straight forwa rd way (that I can think of) to do it other than go to the nearest socket ( bedroom across the landing) and split it there. Rather than have a junction box I was going to add an extra socket besides it to take feed back from t he bathroom to rejoin the ring (if you see what I mean).
Will try and track down the installation manual for the bath and revert.
thanks again
Lee.
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On Monday, 11 September 2017 17:51:11 UTC+1, snipped-for-privacy@yahoo.co.uk wrote:

t the bath.

nd it to the bathroom. It is a bit of a pain as there isn't a straight for ward way (that I can think of) to do it other than go to the nearest socket (bedroom across the landing) and split it there. Rather than have a juncti on box I was going to add an extra socket besides it to take feed back from the bathroom to rejoin the ring (if you see what I mean).

OK - I have managed to find an installation manual online but the electrica l piece seems generic across the Duravit range. It says the following...
Circuit Breaker - In = 16A RCCB I delta <= 30 mA
Then for the instructions it says....
Lay a fixed feed cable for power supply: - install seperate circuit breaker and residual current circuit breaker (RC CB) upstream - connect all pole disconnector mains switch upstream located out-side spec ified protection zones (0-2) - leave 3000mm of feed cable exposed
Lay equipotential bonding cables: - leave 3000mm of cable exposed
The diagram shows zone 0 in bath; zone 1 above bath and zone 2 extends from bath 600mm
So... looking around the web I guess I would need a 16a version of one of t hese and locate it in the cupboard under the sinks? Assuming it is dual pol e?
http://www.screwfix.com/p/bg-13a-switched-weatherproof-rcd-fcu/20523
Any idea what it means by leave 3m of cable / feed cable exposed?
thanks
Lee.
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On 11/09/2017 18:26, snipped-for-privacy@yahoo.co.uk wrote:

If all the circuits that enter the room are protected with a 30mA trip RCD (and the house main EQ bonding is to spec) then you could take advantage of the 17th edition relaxation that allows EQ bonding to be omitted in these cases.

IME Its possible to use crimps or wago terminals in the back of a socket box to join into a ring if you want - so it can all be done at one double socket location.
http://wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/index.php/Easy_socket_extensions
Having said that, you may be better off putting your additional switched protection adjacent to the socket and running a spur from that to the spa (there is no real advantage to the ring being extended to and from the spa)
(is it just a pump or a heater as well? 2+ kW seems like a bit much for just a pump)

Does your source circuit already include a RCD? (if so, no need for another if the trip threshold on the existing one is <= 30mA)

Under a bath also counts as outside of the zones if you need a tool to access the space.

As I mentioned before, its the "16A version" that makes it more difficult since anything designed to be protected by a BS1361 fuse is not going to work in this situation if you read the manufacturers spec to the letter.
(the reality is a 13A fuse is probably more than adequate[1], but they are likely attempting to make their instructions applicable Europe wide where 16A circuits are common and UK style fusing close to appliances is not).

No, that seems a bit odd.
[1] Unless all that 2.1kW rally is just down to one big motor, where the inrush could take out a 13A fuse. (in which case a C10 MCB would probably be a good match)
--
Cheers,

John.
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On 11/09/2017 17:51, snipped-for-privacy@yahoo.co.uk wrote:

You could just run one cable as a spur off the back of the bedroom socket instead of extending the ring. Assuming that the back box is deep enough to accommodate the extra cable.
The fuse or breaker doesn't have to be at the start of the spur, it can be in the bathroom cupboard.
--
Mike Clarke

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