Ah well, all good things come to an end...

On Tue, 01 Sep 2009 00:30:38 +0000, John Stumbles wrote:

I can't think of a good explanation that doesn't involve swearing a lot...
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I suspect GLS halogens are banned with GLS lamps.
Non-GLS halogens can remain, as long as they're Energy class C (or higher). The only ones I know of today which meet this are GE's 225W and 375W K9's which replace 300W and 500W K9's and have an internal infra-red coating to reflect the heat back onto the filament. (I use a 225W to light my back garden, although it's rather rarely used in practice.)
GE produce a whole range of these IR reflecting halogens in the US. Some time back, I asked them why they didn't in the UK, and they said there was no market for them here -- people who care about energy efficiency generally don't buy halogens at all. I guess there might be a change in this stance in the light of the new regulations. This technology is only suitable for certain shaped halogen capsules though (linear tubes probably being the best).
--
Andrew Gabriel
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On 1 Sep, 10:10, snipped-for-privacy@cucumber.demon.co.uk (Andrew Gabriel) wrote:

GLS halogen?
There is the recently introduced GLS shaped Osram halogens and things like Philips Halogena and GE BTT or whatever, never heard of them referred to as GLS though.
Though its uncertain whats going to happen next in wacky world of EU idiocrats haven`t seen any thing specifically heading for line voltage halogen, though an immediate ban on GU10 wouldn`t make many weep.

the wattage and length, think 500W is actually K1 </pedant>

Still lacking any reference to K series linear halogens facing a timed axe?

That really is total nonsense Andrew, what are you suggesting people who care about energy efficiency and Light Quality have been buying?
Believe asked you before to be ignored, would hope you will actually qualify your comments this time.
Adam
P.S as a usenet user for bit more than 10 years sad to see it basically turn into a few web chatrooms, the hierarchy used to mean that asking a specialist question could be directed to a specialist group where specialists would answer, now most frequent header in here is O.T. just an observation

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We were somewhere around Barstow, on the edge of the desert, when the
something like:

Oh dear, dreadfully sorry about slipping standards.
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Guess its evolution...
Adam
Top posted fom google groups for added inconvenience ;-)
wrote:

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On Tue, 01 Sep 2009 04:53:02 -0700, AA wrote:

You forgot extra capitals, extra punctuation, a few dropped vowels, and a massive signature*.
* actually, don't see so much of the latter from GG users - that's one thing which seems to have got better about usenet over the years.
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In message

Hang the heretic

--
geoff

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I bet you're really not sorry at all
In fact I would guess from the tone of your reply that you are just humouring him
So ... anyone got any good jokes regarding California and BBQs ?
--
geoff

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I don't know, but I observe that they've introduced them at power ratings just under where each level of GLS ban takes place. I'm guessing this is so they can take each off the market when required, and the 100W ones seem to have gone. Highest I can now see is 70W, which corresponds to about the 950lm limit in the EU regs from 1 Sep 2009 (equivalent to a 75W GLS, although we don't use these much in the UK).
The EU rules don't refer to GLS lamps at all. They refer to "non-directional household lamps", but then go on to exclude some lamp bases from scope until later. As far as I can see in the regs, these halogen shaped GLS are not handled any differently from clear GLS, but I'd need to sit down and read them very carefully to be sure.
One interesting thing I did notice is that lamps designed for <= 60V are exempt until Stage 6: 1 Sep 2016, and I've certainly seen 12V and 25V GLS lamps in some strange places. A quick search reveals 50V 100W GLS are available.

G9 and R7 (halogen) caps have to be energy efficient from Stage 6: 1 Sep 2016, which is the end of the current commonly bought linear halogens (although conforming replacements exist for 300W and 500W as below). I've never used or investigated G9's much - always seemed to me to be yet another way to produce cheap crap luminaires to sucker in the punters (in the same way as GU10's).
GU10 has not yet been announced yet as regs for reflector lamps are still being thrashed out, but it seems unlikely to me that those which are amongst the least efficient lighting schemes (although not entirely down to the lamps themselves) will survive longer.

OK, I grabbed the K9 off a GE 225W package, which is what I had to hand.

They aren't axed per se. All halogens eventually have to meet Energy class C, (K series are referred to as R7 caps in the EU regs) and the only ones available in the UK which I know of which currently do are the two I mentioned above (plus some of the GLS shaped ones). Others may appear in due course.

Not my suggestion - read what I wrote.

EH? I suspect GE know their market better than you do. Although I might like to buy an IR reflecting K7, that doesn't mean there's enough market to make it worth their while.
--
Andrew Gabriel
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On 1 Sep, 16:41, snipped-for-privacy@cucumber.demon.co.uk (Andrew Gabriel) wrote:

Haologena and others are in distinctly no GLS lamp shapes which does make me wonder below

Wondering if some fudging going on with B.C./ E27 based halogens as special purpose rather than general service lamps.
Of course new builds will have their 87p incl VAT Part L compliant pendant hanging forlornly in middle of room.
Wonder if Medway Handyman has changed any of these over to more convenient fitiings for customers

These not for things like marine and aircraft use though?

Struck me after my ill tempered reply , apology below.

As you mention still unobtanium in the U.K market and really dont fancy the CFL retrofits though might give one a spin for investigation.

G9`s are GU10s evil nephew , again trying to push out nice, reasonably efficient, LV halogen with something that dosen`t need a trafo but dosent so much light the space as lightly pee over it, are a bit on the yellow side.

What this all ,may to be with the lighting industry selling people this years wonder light product to replace last years steam powered stuff. Think some lighting makers think their like the record industry when CDs came in , sell them all the same stuff over again, or in this case couple of generations of retrofits.

Really shouldn`t complete good natured posts interspersed with not good natured phone calls.

Sorry Andrew,my bad. its the rabid all filament lamps are bad type thing that mistakenly associated you with there, doh!

Domestic customers choke at paying more than 2 quid for any lamp, apart from with PIR use, most commercial users have moved to MH or Sodium so not a big market for them there. Have to use a lot of LEDs to replace a 400W MH, so not always a cost effective solution yet in another 6 or 7 years the market should look quite a lot different though.
Cheers Adam

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So:
If starting from scratch, what *do* you choose?
Many 5W led downlighters in one ceiling have been suggested.
For my part, I'm trying to minimise the number of different lamp types I have to stock as spares - and trying to use lamp bases where many different types (eg wattage, colours, led replacements) are or might be available.
So far, of fittings I have already acquired:
2 sets of GU10 240V fittings: rationale are that (currently) there are loads of GU10 lamps in lots of ratings, colours and led types. The last fact suggests *if* led lamp offerings become any good (and I mean lamps, not lab grade leds, of which I have several excellent ones) then GU10 seems to be a format they are likely to appear in.
2 sets (7 total) 12V G4 lamps: used where SELV is a good idea (TM)
Fluorescent striplights for under cabinet use.
Anything else: standard size BC base - lots of decent CFLs in this format.
Cheers
Tim
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Tim S wrote:

In my last house I took good care to replace all the original fittings (it was quite new) with ones that also took BC bulbs. The result was that I needed 40W BC, 60W BC, and 100W BC in my store cupboard, and that was all.
Then we moved.
The previous owner of this house seemed to have an ambition to have at least one fitting with each possible type. certainly BC, SBC, ES, SES, both ES and SES spot, 4ft tube all were represented. Grr.
Andy
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My own view is that using downlighters for general lighting is a bad idea. Unless they're very wide beam, you are basically using the floor as a reflector to light the room, and floors generally make appalling reflectors. If you want a ceiling covered in bright dots for some reason, use decorative lamps for that purpose, and something else more suitable for the general lighting. When I walk into a room with a ceiling covered in downlighters, it just says "cheap" and "clueless" to me.
The odd downlighter used for task or accent lighting over something that needs task lighting or accenting is fine -- indeed that's exactly what they _are_ for.
So having answered with what not to do, thinking of an answer of what to do instead is harder. I must say, I find the choice of light fittings available in shops to be extremely disappointing. Sometimes, I see a light fitting used commercially which I think is good, but then you find you'll have to pay commercial prices for it (i.e. 100 upwards). I end up making nearly all mine, often starting with parts from bought ones, e.g. replacing the guts with something economic to run, or using the glass pieces in different way.
A technique which is very effective (particularly when you can't find fittings you like) is to use indirect lighting with the lights hidden from view. I always do this in kitchens, using linear fluorescents on top of wall cupboards indirectly lighting the room via a brilliant white painted ceiling, and under cupboards for worktop task lighting. This can work in other rooms too, e.g. uplighters in a living room, or even just table lamps dotted around on furniture with open topped shades to make good use of the light reflected off the ceiling, whilst shielding the light bulb from direct view. If I was wiring up a living room, I would include a number of socket outlets around the room switched from the doorway (2A or 5A round pin, or klik lighting points). There's one I added in the living room I'm currently in, but I didn't wire up the whole room, and more would be better. I would still go for a central ceiling light; it can be decorative rather than functional of your main lighting comes from other places, but you still have the option of a function light there too.

That's something I certainly failed, but not something I strived for. I have a cupboard in the garage with spare lamps, and it's not really a big deal how many different ones it holds.

I have some LED lights I am very pleased with, but I made them myself. Commercial equivalents (not that there is anything quite equivalent) would have been around 400, but the parts to make mine probably cost me less than 1/10th of that.
--
Andrew Gabriel
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writes:

The best 10 quid i've spent was on a standard lamp, bunged in a 25W cfl and it's great, pity the plasma pulls 300watts :(
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Andrew Gabriel wrote:

One time I used them, was in the shower room at my last place. That was smallish room 5x7', with white tiles on the top half. Using 35W wide beam LV SELV downlights killed a number of birds with one stone. I could have IPx6 lights right over the shower (Zone 1) and basin (that was 2 of the 4) and the other two just to balance it up. Being not to far out from each corner meant you got plenty of wall wash from the white tiles as well. The point light sources with all the ceramics and a few chrome bits made for well lit and "sparkly" room.

Yup, did this in my neighbours kitchen - gave a very nice result. You can see to work anywhere, you never find yourself working in your own shadow, and yet never actually see any light source directly.
I did want to do that here in our kitchen as well, but swmbo was not keen for some reason. In the end I went for a LV track with 4 50W wide angle GZ10s. Given the ceilings are high here (>10') the 4' spread of the track actually works quite well since you in effect light all the surfaces from several different angles.
--
Cheers,

John.

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In a low ceiling , its a possibility , but concealed fluro may offer a more even solution depending on the space.

Lamp bases is a bit of red herring really, keeping spares in depth should become less of a problem with extending lamp lifes.

GU10 is just the base, the lamp shape is MR16, 16 1/8th of an inch, dont think seen MR11 in GU10.
MR16 is a spotlight lamp, its meant for highlighting things .
Anyway MR16 lamps are 2" in diameter and can get a huge range of fittings, from cheap downlighter rings to multihead ceiling fitiings that take a 2" lamp.
SELV fittings will have a trafo for them and probably a GX 5.3 bi pin base but the lamp shape is the same, GU10 usually slightly deeper.
All the Compact Fluorescent CFL and Cold Cathode Compact Fluorescent CCFL lamps in MR16 are rubbish, optically most of light stays in fitting and the heat means they cook themselves, an option comfortably ignored.
LED MR16 goes from novelty, glass ones with quantity of 5mm LEDs crammed in, cheap and dim but ok for very short throw use, great if you want quantity in saturated colours. Mid range , some of the better no brand 3 and 5W high power LED MR16s are getting pretty good, its lifetime that may be suspect. High end, specialist lamps made from big brand named components from known colour bins with choice of optics.Premium end of price performance curve.
Get all of them in 12 or 240V flavours.
For general lighting ,lot of stuff that is still in commercial zone , and priced accordingly but often not built to match its price TBH, that will hopefully begin to work down to domestic world.
Metal halide is now down to domestic sized lamps , 35W is available but generally in commercial fittings.
Metal halide, high pressure sodium and high efficiency fluro are good ways to go for general area lighting, if you`ve got the celing height uplighters are available in all of these sources. Not reccomendation just an idea of whats available outside of B&Q, John Lewis and BHS:
http://www.litecraftcommercial.co.uk/DECORATIVE-UPLIGHTERS/cid473/DECORATIVE-UPLIGHTERS.asp
Commercial downlighters also make some sense in some domestic applications:
http://www.qvsdirect.com/Recessed-Display-Fitting-IP20-2-x-18W-White-pr-21377.html
Screwfix one is a high frequency ballast accounts for difference in price
http://www.screwfix.com/prods/24878/Lighting-Lamps/Commercial-Industrial/Commercial-Downlights/Thorn-Chalice-190-Fixed-G24Q-White-Low-Energy-Downlight

Stick to T5 which is a standard rather than T4 which is anyones guess.

ES, E27 is a more common continental base , but B.C . implies hanging pendants , probably only good for the airing cupboard nowadays and even then theres a case for LED...
Adam

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AA coughed up some electrons that declared:

Good idea - have to build the containment though, unless it's ready made like kitchen wall cupboards with a plinth.

Still, in the "old days" we only worried about keeping 40, 60 and 100W BC lamps and the odd pygmy.
In my current rented house, the mix of ES, BC and various shaped reflectors (in ES base) is a right pain - always seem to run out of the lamp that just blew.

I'm using then for secondary lighting in the kitchen where I can get some worktop that's out of range of under cupboard lighting.
Also, the kid's bedrooms. I have two inexpensive fittings with 4 lamps, the idea is that a couple wash the matt white ceilings and the other two light a table area and the bed for reading.

And wattages. The fittings came with 4 x 50W lamps. I'm expecting to drop some of these down a notch or two.

Yes. My bathroom is weird L shaped and I need lights in zone 1 - seemed nicer to use 4 fittings dotted around the "L" for better overall lighting.

Agree. The R63s aren't much better in CFL - I can imaging how bad MR16s would be.

I found that with some B&Q bed lights I tried for my daughter. After a month, several leds had burnt out - pathetic. I'm hopeful that in the future led lamps might become decent, but for now I'm not touching them, unless I've built them myself from a decent source.

It is an idea. Certainly for outside illumination, some of those offerings would be better than x-100W halogen tubes.

http://www.litecraftcommercial.co.uk/DECORATIVE-UPLIGHTERS/cid473/DECORATIVE-UPLIGHTERS.asp
http://www.qvsdirect.com/Recessed-Display-Fitting-IP20-2-x-18W-White-pr-21377.html
Interesting - thanks.

http://www.screwfix.com/prods/24878/Lighting-Lamps/Commercial-Industrial/Commercial-Downlights/Thorn-Chalice-190-Fixed-G24Q-White-Low-Energy-Downlight
Thanks for reinforcing that - had heard other musings to that effect too.

I'm going to have some hanging pendants - hallways probably.
Cheers
Tim
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Thats the problem with all mains voltage reflectors, lamp life in, er, just hours.

Main problem with MH in interiors is lack of dimmability , available in colour temperatures other than blue artic white nowadays, CDM lamps are particularly good.
Other problem both outdoors and in, is they wont hot restrike , need a 10 minute break to cool down before relighting, makes them a bit useless on PIR triggers.

Mag ballast can have power factor of less than 0.5 on a commercial meter in matters, if your trying to be green in matters, because the fitiings actually using an extra 50% of labelled power heating up the ceiling void.

Which is where the warm up time of CFL has never helped, its pitfalls at every turn just trying to light your home ;-)
Cheers
Adam

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