On Thu, 15 Dec 2016 02:46:57 -0500, snipped-for-privacy@snyder.on.ca advised:
Yeah. I have read a half-dozen catalogs cover to cover while we were conversing (I multiplex).
I'm pretty sure by now that the Toyota steel rims are P type, but tomorrow I will bring the wheel that I have down to a local tire shop to borrow their rim gauge.
If I can buy a rim gauge at the auto parts store, I'll get it as they're just plastic cutouts that you place against the rim to determine the type.
Once I confirm if it's a P-type, I'll look around locally for a bunch of weights. I'm assuming I could use something like the following for five tires:
1/4 ounce (probably about 10)
1/2 ounce(probably about 10)
3/4 ounce(probably about 10)
1 ounce(probably about 10)
1.25 ounce (probably about 10)
So, an assortment pack of 50 might do me just fine if I can find it locally. Otherwise, I'll just use the stickon weights.
Or, I could use just 1 ounce P-type crimpon weights, and then fine tune with the stickon weights.
The Oreillys here does sell wheel weights. They don't sell clip-on non-lead weights but using the adhesive type should work for you. Around $15. You can trim them to the right weight. Autozone sells the clip-ons but it looks like they sell by the box.
Best reason, IMO, is that you can't dynamically balance them. You can probably get away in many cases with just static, but given that you do need dynamic balancing for at least some situations and all the trouble involved, balancing at home makes no sense to me.
On Thu, 15 Dec 2016 07:30:20 -0800 (PST), trader_4 advised:
I have heard that statement so many times, but that statement is always MISSING a key component, which makes the statement nearly meaningless.
Let me explain by saying that same statement, but with cellphones.
What you're saying is that it's useless to have an older cellphone because a modern cellphone does so much more than an older cellphone.
Well, that might be the case, or it might not be the case, depending on what you need to do with that cellphone. If all you are doing is talking and texting, then maybe you don't need an $800 cellphone. Maybe a simple $300 cellphone will do talk and text just fine.
Likewise, if you carefully statically balance the tires, and if you don't get any vibration, then what would dynamic balancing buy you?
If you can't answer *that* question, then you can't say what you said with any conviction.
It's like the old nuclear bomb joke which says that the Russians don't have the accuracy of the Americans. Sometimes all that dynamic balance accuracy isn't needed so you have to answer this question:
Q: If, after statically balancing, there is no vibration - then what would you *gain* by having the wheels subsequently dynamically balanced?
I understand what you're saying which is that the work to statically balance is wasted if you then have to dynamically balance.
But you have to understand that it's not a lot of work to statically balance once you have the setup and weights stocked (just as it's not a lot of work to put something together with nuts and bolts from your stash if you have a stash of nuts and bolts).
So whether or not your statement holds true really depends on the PERCENTAGE of statically balanced wheels that NEED to be subsequently dynamically balanced.
I don't know the math for that percentage yet. If it's 100%, then you're completely correct. If it's 1%, then you're completely wrong.
So everything hinges on whether or not the vehicle vibrates *after* being statically balanced.
On Thu, 15 Dec 2016 07:14:48 -0500, David L. Martel advised:
Thanks Dave,
My Autozone, Pep Boys & O'Reilly stores don't stock *any* lead weights (but they can all order them). So I went to Harbor Freight today and bought all the lead weights they had but all they had on the shelf were two weights of stickon weights and no clip ons.
Had I just done this once before I would know what I'm beginning to suspect, which is that nobody stocks the clipons at the consumer shops, probably for a bunch of reasons (not a lot of markup, lots of storage shelf space for the various types, and low demand by consumers).
So in 20/20 (experience) hindsight, I should have realized that I have to get the lead weights ahead of time by ordering boxes of 50 of each size.
I think the solution, in hindsight, is simply to order four or five boxes (of 50) of the most needed sizes.
I'm assuming those sizes are the smallest, and the largest, and something in between.
On Thu, 15 Dec 2016 20:49:44 -0500, snipped-for-privacy@snyder.on.ca advised:
Hi Clare,
This is nice that the beauty of the weight pliers is that they have a trimmer built in, especially since we can assume the steel weights (and maybe the zinc weights) may be harder than the lead ones were.
BTW, a beauty of doing a job once yourself, is that you can tell if/when others are doing the job right when you're paying them to do it.
I used to work in a fish store when I was in high school on a work permit, and I learned a LOT about the fibs fish stores tell their customers (e.g., we would slice haddock in half and sell the thick half as scrod and the thin half as cod at two different prices).
So the great thing about knowing something is that you can tell when someone else is telling a fib.
To that end, I only have a single Toyota wheel in my possession at the moment, which has two very different looking wheel weights on them, and, from the looks of them, they could even be of two different ages.
formatting link
If that is the case, then they seem to be improperly mounted. Does it make a difference? Probably not.
But my point is that knowing how to do something allows you to tell if someone else is doing that job correctly.
On Wed, 14 Dec 2016 20:38:10 +0000 (UTC), Frank Baron advised:
To give back to the Usenet team, to thank others, and to help the next person who finds this in a Usenet search, here are about a score of specific answers that I now know, which anyone with experience could have easily told me (since they're basic answers to a basic question):
QUESTION: *What style weight does the wheel take?*
For the steel wheels I am working on, they take a "P" type weight.
That P type weight is sold in lead, steel, and zinc, coated and uncoated in a variety of weights generally from 1/4 ounce to 2 ounces each.
Since I'm in California, lead isn't an option.
Zinc or steel, doesn't really matter (it seems).
Coated or uncoated, for such old steel wheels anyway, doesn't really matter either (it seems).
The way the tire shops figure out the style is the have a template that they hold against the rim as there are about a dozen different clamp on styles of wheel weights for passenger cars.
In a pinch, I can use the stick-on weights instead of clamp-on weights.
Any tool will work for the clamp on weight but it's best to have a special pair of pliers which installs, removes, and trims the weights.
Each weight is designed for a specific shape rim, so, putting the wrong style of weight on can easily result in losing the weight over time during driving.
Lots of shops put on the wrong weights so caveat emptor (you have to know enough to recognize the right and wrong weights for your wheels).
In the SUV I'm working on, the spare tire is a *different* steel wheel than the other four wheel, so I'll have to check it to see if it uses the same P style weight (but it probably does).
The main question of WHERE do you get the weights, the answer is even simpler.
QUESTION: Where do you buy weights for balancing wheels at home?
You buy them on the web in boxes of about 50 or in an assortment.
You will NOT likely find them at consumer auto parts stores.
The stores (O'Reillys, Pep Boys, Autozone) can *order* them.
But they don't have any in stock where I live
Although Harbor Freight has 1/2 and 1 ounce sticky weights in stock
And industrial supply houses will also stock the weights
You probably need sizes from 1/4 ounce to 2 ounces in 1/4-ounce increments.
You probably want to have on hand at least 2 to 4 weights of each size per wheel (on average) because you often split weight putting half on each side of the rim.
Weights are often sold in boxes of 50 so, like bandaids, your best bet is buying them one size at a time and making your own assortment kits.
Some people collect used weights by visiting the parking lot of the tire shops at midnight, to pick up the myriad stray weights lying around.
I hope these answers help others, as the score of answers above are all basic answers to the original question, which I didn't know at the time I posed the question a day or two ago.
I've alrready answered the question. Whether the vibration gets back to you through the steering or not, if there is a dynamic imbalance it WILL accellerate the wear on the front end.
It's up to you. On the Runner not likely TOO much of an issue as it's overbuilt like a tank - but on the bimmer???? I wouldn't take the chance for the cost of a proper balance. Rebuilding Bimmer front ends is NOT cheap. Nor are VW Passat front ends - or most other high end German cars.
Close only counts in horseshoes and hand grenades - and atom bombs. Good enough usually isn't. Might be for you. Usually not for me.
Well, in my experience in the automotive repair business I found more tires - particularly the low priced tires you buy, that required dynamic balance than didn't. We used to have an old Hunter on-car spin balancer - which wasn't any good for dynamic balance, and on 600x16 tires on a '40 ford it was the cat's ass - but a wide oval poly-glass on a '66 goat was a different story. The old hunter was retired and replaced with an early Hoffman - which could balance ANY tire out so it was smooth on any car, at just about any speed it was safe to drive it.
I've never looked back. I've never done a static balance since unless a customer demanded "no weights on the face of the wheels- it's just a boulevard cruiser and never goes more than 50MPH, and only a couple thousand miles a year on a good year". And that was still done on the same balancer - same price.
Then the customer is king, and he got a "good as we can do on the inside" balance with no guarantee.
With a balance, you pretty well know the first time you hit the highway - or at least I do. My butt is pretty well calibrated, and not very well padded.
So you willingly and knowingly worked for a crook - and didn't say anything about it. Really smart to admit to that - - -
And respectfully, Frank - when it comes to automotive service, I don't believe you do.
The one on the right is not the right weight, and most likely would not stay on nearly as well as the right one. (on the left) - which IS properly installed. When they come off they can do a lot of damage on some cars (like a '63 valiant where thet have been known to actually puncture the fender sheet metal above the wheel (no inner fender liners)
Sometimes. If you REALLY know what to look for, and what matters and what doesn't.
On Fri, 16 Dec 2016 00:11:11 -0500, snipped-for-privacy@snyder.on.ca advised:
Hi Clare,
This makes sense that you bought from a traveling jobber as he can carry what he thinks you'll need and you guys can work out a good working relationship (e.g., he can get stuff that you think you'll need).
What I've learned in the past two days is very simple. Basically, you have to plan ahead for the weights.
a. You need to have a rim gauge to determine the type of weight b. You need to stock that type of weight in a variety of weights c. You need (should have) the wheel weight pliers
It's sort of like how we plan ahead for nuts and bolts: a. We have screw gauges to judge the thread pitch b. We stock nuts and bolts in labeled jars by size c. We use the proper sized box or open-end wrench
Yeah. I love inner tubes. I cut them apart and use them for super strong (bungee strong) rubber bands. And the kids use 'em in the pool.
On Thu, 15 Dec 2016 23:57:43 -0500, snipped-for-privacy@snyder.on.ca advised:
Hi Clare, This is a fair enough statement. I have asked the question on the car forums and I have gotten the opposite answer. Also, I believe, in the breaking-the-bead thread, I got a different answer so, this one we will have to leave for opinion.
On the side of your argument, some of the PDFs I read (I read at least a score of them) on how to balance tires with the road-force balancer intimated the same thing you say, so it's not unexpected for you to say that.
However, I must tell you that a *slight* out of balance must be the case for millions of tires on the road today. For example, when I read the PDFs for how to balance tires, I was surprised that TRUCK tires aren't balanced dynamically simply because of cost. They often just dynmically balance the front wheels and nothing else. Or just the tractor, but not the trailer (which has two wheels so the balance issues compound).
I am on all the bimmer forums, so I know a *lot* of guys statically balance their wheels, and that's where I got the idea from in the first place.
The rule there is that if it doesn't vibrate, you're good to go. That rule could be wrong, but, if it is wrong, there are a *lot* of slightly unbalanced wheels out there on the road.
On the bimmer, the bigger problem is the bushings are made out of buna rubber which fails too soon. There are aftermarket polyurethane bushings everyone puts in as a replacement (I think it's poly - I'd have to check).
Also, on the bimmer, the rear negative camber is a killer on the inside edges of tires. Especially since rotation is not in the spec.
Everyone has different risk tolerances. Heck, I know people who don't even clean their own gutters because they're afraid of falling off a ladder, or people who can't chainsaw a tree for similar safety reasons.
There are people who don't even change their own oil, because it's "messy".
Heck, there are even people *afraid* to change their brake pads for heaven's sake.
So, sure, everyone has different tolerances for risk.
If people wear ladies pink panties under their pants, they're not gonna be mounting and balancing their own tires. :)
I knew another cliche was coming ... :)
Again, everyone has a plus-or-minus tolerance. Some people are ok with the PSI in their tires to be plus or minus 20 PSI while others need it to be plus or minus whatever the gauge accuracy is (which is probably five psi or so).
Some torque to exacting specs, others don't even use a torque wrench.
Some check their oil level every week, others don't check it until the light buzzes them.
Some clean the power steering fluid reservoir filter at every second oil change, others don't even know there is a power steering fluid reservoir filter.
As I said to Trader, this is a fair assessment "if" ...
If 100% of carefully balanced tires need dynamic balance, then your assessment is fair and apropos.
However, if 1% of the statically balanced tires need dynamic balancing, then your assessment is completely off the mark.
What's the math? I don't know yet.
But I'll find out.
I completely understand your point which is that badly made tires could be badly balanced in and of themselves.
Everything depends on the manufacturing tolerances, and, in this case, which tires fail and which tires pass the manufacturers own balance tests.
However, as I said, price is absolutely zero indication of quality in and of itself, so we need something *other* than price to prove this assumption. I don't have that data so I'll take your word on faith; however, since you're equating cost to the inherent balance of the tire, it would fall on you to prove that balance of a tire is a LARGE factor in the cost of the tire.
This is pure economics, which we all covered in college.
If the cost of manufacturing is 90% in materials, for example, and only 10% in quality, then the manufacturer will try to skimp on materials, and not concentrate on skimping on quality.
If, however, the cost of manufacturing is 90% in QA and only 10% in materials, then, sure, the manufacturer will be tempted to skimp on QA.
Since tires are a commodity, I suspect it's closer to what you said, which is that the QA is a larger part of the cost of a tire than are the myriad other factors, so, they *might* be tempted to skimp on quality.
As we discussed, I'd *love* to have the manufacturers own specs on the balance of each tire, but in lieu of that, the way I compare tires is by the numbers printed on the sidewall.
On Fri, 16 Dec 2016 00:06:31 -0500, snipped-for-privacy@snyder.on.ca advised:
Hi Clare, You hit upon the simplicity and low risk of my plan!
My plan was always to carefully balance statically and then take the vehicle for a test drive. If it vibrates, then I go get the wheels balanced. If not, a dynamic balance is like having the alignment done when the alignment is already spot on.
I will need to test drive the vehicle on the highway first, just in case there is an existing vibration due to other causes. If there is no vibration, then I'm home free; if there is a vibration, that makes things slightly less intuitive because there are lots of reasons for vibration.
formatting link
C'mon Clare, be realistic.
First of all, I was fifteen, and second of all, even I wasn't a lawyer then and I'm not a lawyer now. I doubt now that it's illegal to cut a fish in half and sell the two halves as two different things at two different prices.
Look up Boston Scrod. It's a meaningless MARKETING term that nobody realizes isn't a real fish. And then look up North Atlantic Cod, which is also a generic term.
At *every* place I worked back east as a high-school kid, they did screwy stuff like this (lots and lots of stuff). It was my indoctrination that the job is never done right (I won't even tell you what they did at the nursing home).
That's very true. I never once said I was an automotive expert. I'm on the other end of the Dunning-Kruger scale. .
Thank you for letting me know that the weight on the right is the wrong one. I wasn't sure which was wrong, but they did look odd being very different, and the one on the left looks older (although it's also on a different side of the wheel, the outside facing part).
That pretty much proves that whoever it was that mounted the previous tire, they didn't do it "by the book".
Interesting. I hadn't though of what happens when it comes off, but that lead weight has to fly through the air somewhere. I see them along the sides of the highway all the time.
Exactly. If I were to do the typical job of buying new tires at a local tire shop, what I can tell is:
I know the online price so I know if I'm getting a good deal
I know how to compare the tires by the spec (not by bullshit)
I know how they should align the red or yellow dots
I know how they should remove the BBS hubcaps (if it's that car)
I know how they should remove the old weights
I know how they should replace the valve
I know how they should balance the wheel with split weights
I know that they should use the proper style weights
I know that they should properly inflate the wheels
I know that they should properly torque the lug bolts or nuts
I know that they should properly install the plastic hubcaps (if any)
I know what they should charge for the old tire disposal fee
I can virtually guarantee they will not do all those things right. If I do it, all those (except dynamic balance) will be done right.
No, I never said anything about cellphones or anything being useless. The simple fact is that dynamic balancing does a better job and that you may have noticeable problems if you only do static balancing. If you want to live with that possibility, and all the other hassles with mounting and balancing your tires at home, that's up to you. Just like using an old cell phone, when newer, better methods are available. BTW, at some point everyone moved on from AMPS and if you still have one of those, I would bet it is pretty much useless today as a cellphone.
Try using an AMPS, analog cell phone on the major carriers today.
Notice the big "if" there.
I just did answer it.
Again, notice the big if. It's not worth it to me, or to 99% of the world, apparently, to screw around and hope that there is no vibration. It's simpler, easier, to just have the tires mounted and dynamically balanced at a shop.
Bingo.
Even if it's a low percentage, it's just not worth screwing around for me or most people, obviously. The last set of tires I bought, I have
80K miles on them. And even if I only got 30K miles it's not worth the hassle, the trouble of screwing around at home. It cost $50 every time I fill up the gas tank. For $60 I can get tires mounted, dynamically balanced, new valve stems, and the old tires disposed of. Spending that $60 every few years, compared to the cost of gas, oil changes, insurance, repairs, is really very small potatoes.
Not for me. I just pay $60, get it done right, no fuss, no muss. And also for that ~$60, I get free rotation and dynamic balancing for the life of the tires.
ROFL. I've been on some of those BMW forums, like Xoutpost, and I can tell you that what you have there is mostly a bunch of amateurs, many who don't even know the basics. I've seen guys that have been there for years, giving advice like they were experts, when they are saying things like the battery is not directly connected to the alternator. I saw one idiot post pics and procedure for changing an alternator, where he didn't disconnect the battery first. He had a pic of the live alternator cable hanging from the hood by a cord. And when I pointed out how dumb that was, not only did I get argument from him, but also from most of the "experts" there. THAT is what you're dealing with.
The majority at Xoutpost agreed that changing the alternator without disconnecting the battery was OK too. And BTW, this isn't a 60s car where the alternator is staring you in the face. It's in close quarters, where it's easy to hit something with a wrench.
I'm sure there are. The unknown questions are what are the results to the suspension? Do tires last somewhat less? And who would know? Those BMW gearheads on those forums love to change their front end components at a drop of a hat. Fork over hunddreds for parts, if they DIY or thousands for a shop. And then they are proud that they spend that money every 50K, it's like a badge of honor.
There are quite a few things that BMW screws up on badly. Their V8 engines in the 2000s were a freaking disaster. Valve seals shot at under 100K miles and all the other seals leaking oil like a sieve.
That's another thing that mostly isn't worth it today either. Not only is it messy, but you have to then lug waste oil around to someone that will dispose of it for you. I have a classic MB that I change the oil in myself, just because I doubt a quick change place would have the filter or know how to change a canister type filter, etc.
On Fri, 16 Dec 2016 08:23:11 -0800 (PST), trader_4 advised:
Do I sound like I don't know the bimmer inside and out? Tell me something about the DISA that I don't know, for example. Or the VANOS?
There are a ton of forums, Xoutpost isn't one that I'm on.
Look Trader. I've rewound my own (motorcycle) alternator coils, ok. I know alternators better than you do. I've researched and purchased just the right insulator to cover the metal in and then bake it on.
On my Bosch 120Amp alternator on the bimmer, I've rebuilt it, replacing the bearings, brushes and internal regulator.
I don't know this Xoutpost site as I've never been on it but on the bmw-specific sites, we all know what the alternators look like inside as we rebuild them ourselves.
As I said, everyone has their own risk tolerance. There are tons of people who are afraid to compress springs so they have someone else put in their struts. Likewise there are tons of people afraid to replace their disc brake pads and rotors (even though that's one of the easiest jobs out there).
If they wear ladies pink panties under their pants, then they're just not ever gonna risk balancing their own tires. I get that.
But this group isn't for people wearing ladies pink panties, is it?
I have to agree with you on this one in that lots of people just love to lower their cars and to replace the suspension components (and plenty of shops will goad them into doing it too).
What irks me is they think they're upgrading their brakes when they go drilled and slotted, which is hilarious, because they don't have a clue about friction numbers.
Or they buy pads without even knowing what the cold hot friction specs are.
But idiots abound everywhere.
While I agree with you that BMW can't make an entire car correctly, the engine on my E39 is bulletproof. The major weakness is external, in that the cooling system fails which causes the #3 cylinder to crack just outside the sleeve because that's the thinnest part next to the cooling system chambers. Also the steel DISA valve pin gets ingested, which does wonders to valves and piston crowns.
The VANOS seals are blamed for a lot of valve-timing ills, but I think VANOS just got a bad rap.
But other than those external threats, the engine itself is bulletproof.
I have had a theory that goes back 40 years, which is that anyone who thinks changing oil is too messy to do probably doesn't know anything about cars anyway, so they're not worth discussing things with.
You really take this serious, I don't think I've ever lost a tire weight I put on a wheel. None that I know of at least. Just hammer the steel down a bit and hammer them on the rim. An alloy rim, break off what you need from an old lead weight, hammer the lead flat a bit and glue them on with some Dollar Tree adhesive. Make sure they clear the disc brakes and ur go to go. Unless they are showing no one will ever care. I found a shiny new penny today when walking the dog. Amazing the things that people lose. Springs, bolts, nuts, washers, money, lots of smart phones cables and ear buds (usually run over), found a complete smart phone once and an old lady's cell phone which I was able to return to her, lots of gloves before the oil patch dried up, a tow hook, mail the mailperson let get away, a couple of checks (turned those into the banks) and oh yeah .... tire weights.
HomeOwnersHub website is not affiliated with any of the manufacturers or service providers discussed here.
All logos and trade names are the property of their respective owners.