Various bandsaw questions...long

I am in the process of researching a bandsaw purchase. Having never owned a a real bandsaw (there was the well-intentioned gift of a really cheap benchtop which was used twice and promptly discarded) I'm could use some help assessing features. I'm looking at the $1k price point but the I can go higher if there is a truly compelling argument.

I will use this saw for curved cuts, stopped cuts and resawing. Currently, I am mostly involved in furniture making. (no bowl turning, or green wood stuff to date). 220V is NOT a problem ( I have a 10ga 110V circuit with an adjacent slot in the panel for just this purpose).

  1. I would like >6" resaw capacity. By intuition tells me that a 14" saw with a riser kit is an engineering kludge. If the structure could handle it w/o undue flex, why not just put that extra bit of metal in the base line design? Isn't that stretching motor capacity too?

  1. How much resaw capacity is really required. Once again, intuition suggests to me that extra resaw capacity, unused is a bad thing. That is, is a larger structure is more dificult to make ridged. The Laguna 14 has a capacity of 8.5"... (this would allow me to bookmatch a 17" pannel which is more than enough for my aesthetic preference) How often would 8.5 that not be enough?

3.Of what benefit is a rack and pinion blade guide?

  1. I would also like to keep the weight below 350lbs. I have an upstairs shop. I assume that removing the motor and table is fairly simple, the moving a 200lb thing is pretty managable with 2 guys. Am I correct in assuming that removing the motor and table is easy and removing the wheels is a bad idea?

  2. I got the Laguna free video. It spends some time explaining why their proprietary giudes are superior. (In short, the guides come in direct contact with the blade, and are located above AND below the thrust point to eliminate twist, in addition the "in-contact" design eliminates micro-flutter). This makes sense, but it IS marketing. Anyone care to comment on if they are truely superior in a significant way?

  1. How important/useful is a quick-release blade tension feature? how bad is it if I forget to detension the blade andnot happen to use the saw to 2 weeks?

My short list looks like:

Bridgewood BW-17WBS

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(Cheezy fence, but otherwise a nice capacity/feqature set)

Laguna 14LT

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(less capacity but I feel pretty confident about the quality)

Griz

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(Can you really get quality at this price point?)
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(Can you really get quality at this price point?)
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(aluminum wheels!?!)

  1. 1st hand comments on any of these models would be appreciated

  1. One of my beefs about magazine reviews of tools is that I think all reviews of, say, contractor saws, should have a side bar on "when does it make NOT sense to buy a contractor saw because what you really need is a cabinet saw". There is no doubt that the 2K machines such as the Laguna

16SE, MiniMax 16 and the BridgeWood PBS, are all the BS I could ever want, but my gut tells me that this is overkill. Is there a compelling reason why I would really regret going up-market? By the same token, should I give the Delta/Jet etc... 14"-ers a closer look.
Reply to
Stephen M
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Well, I looked at them all, and settled, quite happily, for a MiniMax 16. Quite expensive, but a great saw.

If you are looking for a better small saw, then go with the Delta or Laguna. The riser block is not really a kludge, since it works very well. The bandsaw issues that no one ever really addresses are: blade quality and tension application.

I think few people would now consider any tablesaw blade that is not carbide based. They last longer, and now give great cuts. So why not the same for a bandsaw. The only really good carbide bandsaw blade is made by Lennox--go with the 1/2". The resawing is great, and will last a very log time. They are expensive, but so are Freud and Forrest TS blades. This leads to problem no. 2:

Tension. You will never get the Delta or clones, including Jet to provide more than 10,000-15,000 psi of tension; the American Delta more than the others (including the cheaper, but crappier Chinese Delta-you will know which by the price). The Laguna 16" model can't handle the 25,000-30,000 Lennox recommends, so I assume the 14" can't either. The MiniMax gets that in its sleep.

I've used the Delta 14" and Jet 16" steel bandsaw. The Delta is plain better, so it's also reasonable to figure the 14" American Delta is better than the Jet and other clones. So if you don't want to go over $1,000, go with the highest end Delta, but don't forget a good blade. Plus check out Iturra Design, for the upgrades you will want to make the saw even better.

Reply to
DarylRos

I recently bought the MM16 and agree! If you are still limited to a kilobuck you might want to look at the MiniMax "S" series, lots of quality still but scaled down a tad from the MM series.

-Bruce

Reply to
Bruce Rowen

Stephen,

Check out the new Laguna 14" with 12" resaw!!

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saw this in a side bar in FWW a couple months ago and drooled all over the page. I own the grizzly G0555 and love it to death, but if I'd had $1k to put down on a bandsaw I would have bought this puppy without even thinking twice. It's a 2hp motor too (up from the previous 1.5hp).

Let us know what you decide -- oh, and if you get the lt14se let us know what you think :)

Mike

Reply to
Mike in Idaho

I've got the Delta 14. Has done everything I need, and I'm also a turner. I don't have the room or the need for 16" or 24" monsters like I've used at commercial places. Your purse may be longer and your shop larger, but I will bet you'll find yourself doing almost all work within the capabilities of a 14" saw.

Reply to
George

I did look there, but for the $1500+ they want for an S16 or S45N, I might as well for for the MM16

The MM16 does look sweet.

Reply to
Stephen M

Good post.

When you refer to the Laguna 16, were you referring to the 16 or the 16HD. They are different saws from different maufacturers. The 16HD is really the one that competes with the MM16.

Although I have not been looking for it, I have not seen the tension spec on any of the websites. Do you find that that spec is available from most vendors?

BTW $1K was a general price point, not really a limit. I would say that $2K would be an absolute limit tax/shipping etc.

Reply to
Stephen M

The one thing I hate about my blade guide adjustment is that any time I change the height, I have to realign the guides. The thing twists easily when the height is adjusted. I keep thinking that a decent rack and pinion design would minimize this. If the rack and pinion design you're looking at prevents twist - go for it!

I know that there are folks who advocate that all modern guides can be used in contact with the blade. We're talking about the cool running guides or bearing guides, not the older high friction or heat sensitive guides. I have bearing guides and run them just touching the blade.

OTOH, I saw a demonstration by a vendor of Swedish steel blades (a competitor to Timberwolf) at a woodworking show. He raised the guides to the maximum height and backed off the guide so that it provided no support to the blade (other than thrust). He pointed out that a properly tensioned, low-tension blade doesn't need much support. He proceeded to make a nice clean, straight cut - about as good as I can do with my bandsaw when it's reasonably well set up. YMMV.

Mike

Reply to
Michael Daly

Hey Mike, where'd you get $1k Website says $1145. Then there's the cost of shipping. Or were you just rounding to the nearest $1k? :-)

Bob

Reply to
Bob Davis

My bad, I was just rounding. I figured if you're willing to spend $1k and you want something of Laguna quality but 12" resaw is a must then throwing in another couple hundred is a possibility -- unless he'd already up'd his original price from say $700-$800 to $1k, then that might not be a possibility.

I guess basically I was saying I wasn't willing to pay that much (I payed $435 w/shipping for my G0555), but if I had been in the $1k range I would jump at the lt14se without a second thought. (Hee, hee, it's so much easier to spend someone elses money, huh ;)

Mike

Reply to
Mike in Idaho

Reply to
Poseidon

You might want to consult a metallurgist.

As much as you will need for a required project. This will vary.

Yes. Makes for easier up and down and the guides don't crash onto the table.

Yes.

Around here the Laguna is a status symbol. By all means, get one and you can be just like everyone else.

Blade tension became an issue because the same guys that buy Lagunas like to let them sit for months on end lest they actually have some saw dust appear in their shoppes. In other words, it's pretty over blown, especially if you buy machinery for using instead of, well, a status symbol.

snippage...

They are awful shiney.

Only you can answer this and by your questions I think you've got a pretty reasonable grasp on things.

On the other hand, you could find a good used saw and if it becomes apparent that it's over kill you can turn right around and sell it for what you have in it.

UA100

Reply to
Unisaw A100

< much snippage>

if you only need 6" of resaw capacity, you should consider the Powermatic #141, or the General #390. Both are over your stated budget of $1000, but are frequently available on Ebay (the Powermatic at least) well within your numbers. FWIW, I think that resaw capacity should match your jointer width capacity. Excess resaw capacity seems wasted if you have to rip to narrow width to face joint.

Rick

Reply to
Rick Stein

Band saw pricing is a frustrating lot. It seems there are more bandsaws, sizes and features that make a continuum of pricing with price breaks about every $200 or so. I've got the Laguna video and I watched the table saw portion but not the bandsaw. I'll go back and watch it. Their tablesaw made lust so much that I got disgusted and didn't watch the rest. I was amused by the president giving his lecture on safety: "If you are a hippie, be careful of your long hair".

Bob

Reply to
Bob Davis

Marketing. The DIY crowd prefers bench top, light duty stuff - cute and less intimidating than a BIG HEAVY SCARY Monster (the latter being the exact thing that appeals to many of us here). So for their biggest market they make the "petite" model and make the conversion to "a real bandsaw" an option for those who are inclined to want MORE POWER, Bigger, Beefier tools.

Regarding ridgidity - use to be thick walled cast iron = rigidity. Once again, the Europeans closely examined that assumption and found that there were other ways of getting rigidity without adding a lot of wieght in cast iron. The box and box plus triangle bandsaws we see today can be just as rigid, if not more rigid, than all cast iron models- AND weigh less.

A GOOD rack and pinion "blade guide" means not having to tweek your blade guides every time you raise or lower the blade guide + guard. If it doesn't move up and down while remaining square to the table you start cutting trapezoids and not rectangles. Tapered veneer is not good.

The 2.5 HP TEFC on the LT 16SEC has got to be 75 or more pounds, with the cast iron table and fence coming to another 40-50 pounds. But the

16SEC weighs about 375 so it'd be a bit of a challenge to get to a second floor.

DO NOT remove the wheels. That's asking for a ticket to Set Up Hell.

While on the subject - you want dynamically balanced wheels - and cast iron at that. Wheel weight = inertia = more continuous cutting power when the teeth hit harder areas. Dynamically balanced wheels mean smoother cutting and that's a really good thing.

The less the blade can move left/right or twist the better. Cool Blocks and the other direct contact guides have been found to work well for a long time now. But they wear and that means they need more frequent adjusting. The ceramic guides are direct contact, they don't wear very quickly AND they dissipate heat well - heat being an enemy of band saw blades.

I picked up a set at a WWing show and eventually got around to installing them. Required hacksawing a little thick sheet metal but they work pretty well. Unlike the bearing guides, the ceramic guides will work well with narrow blades as well as wider blades and you can set the front of the side guides just behind the teeth, behind their set. Of course if you have a blade with a less than smooth joint they can be a problem.

Detensioning the blade is actually doing several things. First, and obvious, it takes the tension off the blade and blades like that. But it also decompresses the tension spring which is the shock absorber on your bandsaw. That spring, when kept compressed too long will loose some of its springyness. That means less shock absorption and that's not good. Finally, detensioning the blade also takes pressure off the bearings on the upper and lower wheels. Bearings last longer that way.

As for quick release blade tension feature - is the time savings by not turning a knob three or four revolutions really significant? If you change blades often - 1/4" for tight turns and delicate stuff, 1/2' for normal things and maybe some resawing, 3/4" for beefier big cuts and maybe once in a while a 1 inch blade for slicing up a mini-log. If you have to adjust the tension after each blade change a "one size fits all" quick release could be a problem since the proper tension for a 1 inch blade is quite different from that of a 1/4 inch blade. Over time the spring's strength will lessen so if you rely on a set of initial tension points for each blade width you could have a problem with undertensioning down the road

I've got the LT 16SEC - 2.5 HP TEFC motor, 12+ inch resaw, rack and pinion guides - though plastic rack and pinion, and stamped steel trunion. Works well though I'd prefer a cast iron trunion.

Torben is a bandsaw nut - loves doing laminated pieces using stuff he bandsawed himself. If LT carries a bandsaw Torben probably has used that model. If it doesn't work for him they probably won't be selling it.

NOTE: if you can get a model with a table that'll tilt BOTH WAYS you can cut dovetail pins without having to make an angled support jig. The LT16SEC only tilts one way - dammit.

ALSO - mobility kit - you will move this thing several times at least. Shoving/rocking/walking a 6+ foot tall 250-400 pound beast around is not fun.

AH - the age old "buy more than I need and never use the extra capacity/ capability/power" vs "buy what I think I NEED now and then have to buy another one sooner or later". To that I say "Buy Once, Cry Once" (if you can afford it)

You WILL have a really nice piece of wood that's wider than 8.5 inches and the thought of ripping it down to 8.5 inches in order to get that bookmatched pair you want will haunt you. AND, if you have a bandsaw, you will find mini-logs of nice stuff that you can saw into boards, sticker and stack and wait a year to dry so you can use it. The wider you can cut the more options you'll have a year later when it comes to picking what you want out of each board. Don't envy you the consumer research but you're going at it in the right way. I'm sure you'll be happy with whatever you eventually buy.

charlie b

Reply to
charlie b

Charlie,

Nice reponse. Thanks for taking the time. I have a couple followup questions to your comments.

What does dynamically balanced mean? Is it like balancing a a car tire? (spin it and add/remove material until it's even?)

. Unlike the bearing guides, the ceramic guides will work

I understand the theory. Do you find that these guides offer a imperical improvement, or is it tough to say without a proper control group (same saw/blade/wood etc.. with alternative guides)?

Lost you there... Who's "they".

Thanks, I had not thought of that.

Reply to
Stephen M

They make an _absolute_ improvement, but don't let the teeth touch 'em, or it's hone for dull. For that, cool blocks or such.

If you have a badly ground join on your blade, touch it up or find another supplier.

Reply to
George

This comming from the guy who's handle is "unisaw A100" ?!? Are all >$1000 saws "boutique" saws? or just the italian ones? For this kind od money, not only do I want a good saw.... it had better be fashionable too. :-)

I would not want my first love (JTAS Jet cabinet saw) to feel rejected. So I can't spend ALL my time with the new girl.

That's good to know, as I'm a bit off the beaten path and it will take me at least 4-5 hours of driving to see/feel/touch/smell any one of the products on my "list".

Although that is not out of the question, living in rural area spreads out the market. If an opportunity presented itself, I would be all over it, but expecting that opportunity to arise within the next few months would be unreasonably optimistic.

-Steve

Reply to
Stephen M

As an "explainer", A-100 is the serial number of my Unisaw (El Guapo).

Don't forget, there is a proportional relationship between what you put in and what you get from it.

UA100

Reply to
Unisaw A100

| |Charlie, | |Nice reponse. Thanks for taking the time.

I second that. | |> DO NOT remove the wheels. That's asking for a ticket to Set Up Hell. |>

|> While on the subject - you want dynamically balanced wheels - and cast |> iron at that. Wheel weight = inertia = more continuous cutting power |> when the teeth hit harder areas. Dynamically balanced wheels mean |> smoother cutting and that's a really good thing. | |What does dynamically balanced mean? Is it like balancing a a car tire? |(spin it and add/remove material until it's even?)

In my youth I ran an automotive machine shop where we did engine balancing so maybe I can explain. There are two types of out of balance forces that can be generated in rotating objects:

Stewart-Warner, the maker of my balancing equipment called these "force" and "couple", although they are commonly called "static" and "dynamic" respectively. Usually the term "dynamic balancing" is used to indicate that the balancing was done while the object was rotating, but depending on the object, this may or may not be anything more than hype.

To explain this, I will use a pair of wheels from a bandsaw. Let's say that our wheels are cast iron and 1" thick at the rim and hub. When the manufacturer machined the castings, he bored the hole in the hub slightly off-center and then machined the rim concentric with the hole. If we measure the runout at the rim with a dial indicator, everything looks fine; perfectly round and concentric. (From what I've seen of woodworking machinery, this is not a hypothetical)

First let's use just one wheel and assume that it has a set screw for locking it on the shaft We place the wheel on the middle of a perfectly ground shaft of say 2 feet long and lock it down. We then suspend this shaft horizontally on a set of totally frictionless bearings located at the ends of the shaft. Since the "meat" of the wheel is off-center, there is a spot on the wheel that is "heavier" than anywhere else and that spot causes the shaft to rotate until the heavy spot rests at the location closest to the center of the Earth. There is a "force" proportional to the mass and its distance from the center of the shaft that causes this rotation.

This is pretty intuitive and should be clear to all. We all should have a feel for what happens when we try to spin this shaft up. At low enough speed nothing much happens but as the rpm increases, this weight flying around starts trying to turn our perfect bearings into junk.

If we go back to our "static" case where the only rotation is due to the off-center mass we can, by trial and error, drill holes in the spokes or along the rim of the wheel until we remove the heavy spot so that when turned to any position and released, the wheel remains motionless. We have removed the force and the wheel is statically balanced. Alternatively, we could add an equal weight opposite the heavy spot and accomplish the same thing. (I used to use modeling clay to achieve balance and then weigh the clay and knowing the density of the metal, know how much to drill out.)

If we now bring this shaft/wheel assembly up to operating speed, it should run very smoothly, thus it is also "dynamically" balanced, although we didn't spin it up to achieve this. So what's the big deal about dynamically balanced bandsaw wheels you ask. In a word (or two), not much, other than it indicates that they *were* balanced.

Where is does matter can be explained by another example: Let's mount two wheels on our shaft and space them 12" apart. Let's assume that the manufacturer has implement process controls that have reduced variability to zero (six sigma). (We won't ask about the off-center hole bore) So, both wheels are identically flawed. We also assume that the wheels can be indexed with respect to each other anywhere we want them.

Unless we routinely win the Powerball, there will be some angular separation between the heavy spots other than 180 degrees. In any other case the shaft will rotate so that it stops with the heavy spots equally spaced about a downward pointing line bisecting the smaller included angle between them. We now have too little information to know exactly where the heavy spots are. All we know is that they are equally spaced with respect to the virtual "heavy spot" and they aren't 180 degrees apart. By trial and error, we can rotate one wheel with respect to the other until we position the two heavy spots 180 degrees apart, where they exactly counteract each other. Our assembly is now statically balanced. Are we done? No, let's see what happens when we spin it up.

Because the two heavy spots are separated 12" from each other along the length of the shaft, they try to "do their own thing." At any instant in time one mass is trying to move the end of the shaft in one direction while the other mass is trying to move the other end of the shaft in the opposite direction. Unrestrained, the shaft would wobble around the point midway between the wheels. So when our shaft is at rest, i.e. static, it is in balance but when it is rotating, the two forces "couple" to each other and the assembly is "dynamically" out of balance.

The only way to correct this is to spin it up and measure, and correct, the forces independently. Note that with a given amount of off center mass, the effect is worse the farther apart the two wheels are along the shaft. Conversely, if we slide the two wheels together, since they are relatively thin, the effect is negligible and our static balancing method is probably good enough.

Lest anyone think that the static method I describe isn't used, we had a couple of industrial strength crankshaft grinders that used grinding wheels 36" in diameter and two or more inches wide. The wheels had a center hole about eight inches in diameter and were mounted on a hub that captured the wheel between two flanges. Since the wheels were molded, the holes weren't terribly accurate and the wheel was never concentric when mounted. The hub contained a set of sliding weights and we did mount it to a shaft and put it on a set of bearings and tweaked the weights just as I described earlier.

When we figured it was close enough to not self-destruct (it happened once...you think a table saw kick back is something....) we would diamond dress it round and rebalance.

Since tire balancing was mentioned, if you're old enough to remember the old skinny tires, you might remember "bubble balancers." These balanced the tire/wheel assembly statically by suspending the assembly horizontally on a point and using a bubble level to see which direction the tire moved. Weights were added on the high side until the tire was level.

With today's wider tires (the wheels on my Camaro SS are 9" wide) it matters on which side of the wheel the balance weights are fixed, especially at 130 mph.

I know this doesn't have anything to do with woodworking but I don't know much about woodworking so I've gotta write about something else :-)

Whew.

Reply to
Wes Stewart

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