Agreed. It wasn't until about an hour ago that I understood even what the components were.
The booster pump was never out of water (the tanks are completely full) but the squeal is disturbing - but hasn't returned - even when the pump wouldn't turn on.
You are correct though that the only thing left for debugging is to figure out if it's the pressure switch or the motor itself where it would be unlikely to be the motor but the voltage at the pressure switch when the motor is supposed to turn on will tell me everything.
The tanks are as full as they can get. They can't get fuller. So water level isn't the problem.
I think you're right that the only thing left to debug is right at that pressure switch.
By my calculation it would take 66x2.3 = 152 ft. A very tall tank and/or way up a hill. Or his pressure gauge is kaput or something else is going on, like he's measuring it with pressure still in the tank.
You are completely correct that the well will never pump water for more than about five minutes before running dry.
Then the well will sit idle for a timed period (I think it's set to something like 20 minutes or so). Then it tries again.
It takes many days (sometimes weeks) to fill the big water tanks, depending on drought conditions.
I think the biggest source of confusion was I had no clue how this booster pump setup worked because it never gave me a reason to care before.
This is the first time it had a problem. I think I understand almost everything now ... what I don't understand exactly I can figure out - which is the wiring at that relay.
The plan right now is simple ... now that you helped me understand how it works. I will simply test the voltage while it's working, and then test the voltage when it's not. :)
The one-time sound is an issue of concern ... so it still may be related.
Well, (so to speak :) ), that Q? was raised before we knew there _were_ two pumps and that there was a large storage tank elsewhere...as in the followup sidebar w/ T4, that is _not_ a typical residential intallation here nor for most of the other ahr regulars I believe.
Once those facts were revealed, _then_ all became much clearer as to what the system is and how it must operate.
You've got to be able to pump what water there is over a long-enough time to have sufficient reserve -- although 10 kgal is quite a reserve for just a residence -- unless you have long(ish) periods where the well is dry or nearly so or do you really irrigate that much on a regular basis?
I'm still curious as to what the actual down-hole pump size info is altho it has no bearing on any of the issues, just wondering what kind of actual well capacity might be...
Holy shit. The tank input line has a flow gauge which goes round and round which NEVER indicates more than about 6 gallons a minute and which can only do that fast pace for only a few minutes before it shuts down.
Again going back to our previous poster friend, I think he was in CA and they had a requirement that where he lived in the hills that a certain amount of water was required to be stored for use in a fire. That could be part of the need for so much capacity.
The pressure is from the bladder tank since the rest of the system is still full. If it's set approx correctly if he's operating at 50-70 psi the empty air pressure should be ~68 psi or -2 psi from shutoff setpoint.
That makes pretty close to observed so I'd guess that's functional...if he were to totally open the system, of course, that would go away but he's got the supply from the reserve tanks to keep pipes full even when the little tank isn't even if the well pump isn't running, either.
It's my fault for not understanding the booster pump system well enough to explain how it works.
I just checked the power wiring to and from the pressure switch and it's as one would logically expect, with 120 volts each on the two input black wires to the common green ground and essentially zero volts on the two inside blue wires to the motor when the gauge pressure is at 75psi.
The only electrical thing to test now is what happens, electrically, at this pressure switch, when the gauge pressure drops to around 65 psi.
Codes are now that everyone has to have a separate tank for fire alone, where much of that 10,000 gallons is already reserved for fire via the designs of the low-water cutoff switches.
I don't know. The wells never put out more than 6 gallons a minute. And even that only happens for a few minutes at a time only.
The only thing left to troubleshoot now that the system is figured out is the voltage on the pressure switch when it's supposed to go on.
Right now, moments ago, when it was in the static pressurized state, it had
120VAC on each input black lead and essentially noise on the two blue leads to the motor (all to the green common ground).
Do you know if there is a way to bypass the pressure switch without jumpers? It's not important if there isn't a way to test it manually.
I'll just shut the electricity or let the irrigation run for a while until the booster is forced to turn back on. When the booster turns back on, I'll test the voltage. If it doesn't turn back on, I'll test the voltage.
I don't think I will have anything to report until I run that test.
That's a small well here...irrigation wells may be as much as 800-1000 gpm. altho more common in the lower hundreds than above 500 any more as water table has dropped.
OK, that and your follow-up on capacity reserve answers the Q?. It's almost a dry hole but while fortunately it's not an issue of such limited supply not familiar with personally I do know there are large areas in particularly mountainous regions without large aquifers to tap into.
Well, there's _always_ voltage at the switch; the only question is does it close and are the contacts any good to get to the other side...
Well, did you not check for 240V _across_ the two blacks??? One would presume nobody's moved anything and got both on the same phase, but... :)
Sure, just take a screwdriver with non-conductive handle and push down to close the contacts...let go and it'll reopen if pressure >cutoff or run 'til builds pressure if drops while closed.
BTW, since you're interested in what you really have there, it's a jet pump, but it's being used like a conventional pump. The second connection for the pressure side pipe that would normally go down the well isn't used.
I admit I goofed calling it a relay. I have no excuse as it's a "pressure switch".
I didn't look closely and simply assumed there were coils there, like there must be on the relay that gets pulled in when the storage tanks have water in them.
Looking closely, it appears to work like thus:
a. The pressure gauge is on the OUTPUT of the motor impeller b. That is also on the output of the pressure bladder c. So, gauge pressure is bladder pressure which, interestingly has to also be the pressure on the pipes coming OUT of the storage tanks
This makes no sense to pressurize the storage tanks from down below the water level - but the only way that is not the case is if there is a check valve INSIDE that cast iron front of the motor near the impeller.
Outside the booster pump house is a "relay" that will pull itself in when the water level is high enough to operate the booster pump:
Inside the booster pump house is a "pressure switch", which gets its pressure reading from the impeller cast-iron side of the motor via a hollow pipe.
It then opens or closes this switch where the two input black wires are each 120VAC to the green common ground and the two output blue wires are to the booster pump motor.
I don't think I'll have anything to report back until I measure the voltage when it's supposed to turn on, and even then, it has to fail for me to find the problem.
But I at least now know that those two blue wires to ground are where to look!
You are almost certainly correct though, as GE pointed me to Riegel Beloit who bought the GE motor division 260-416-5400 who told me to go to GE Marathon/Century 800-541-7191 who told me that GE made this motor only for Marathon who made it only for Jacuzzi Brothers as a custom built motor (that's from memory of the phone calls today looking for a parts diagram).
So can I just buy any 1HP (SF 1.4) 56C frame motor? The impeller would also need to be inspected when the motor is removed.
BTW, the bladder tank spec is here. Model WX302, Well-X-Troll Factory precharge 38 psi Maximum working pressure 125 psi Test pressure 125 psi
So it's working at about half its maximum pressure and roughly about double its precharge pressure.
Well, that one doesn't take much; it's a jet pump but there's only the input and one discharge port being used so that pretty-much tells the story that the down-hole isn't being used (not to mention we also now know that the hole if 500-ft or so w/ a puny little submersible). :)
Since you need the pump for water for the house, I would probably just buy a whole new pump. Is it worth it to buy a motor, tear it apart, then find o ut you have a problem with the pump section, getting it back together, need another part, etc? Looks like you got your service life out of it. That is assuming you figure out the problem is the pump. If you have some time, yo u might find a deal on one online, even ebay.
It doesn't even needs must be a jet pump altho if can find one of same form factor to fit the existing plumbing makes swap-out simpler.
I replaced the isolation valve when hooking up the new well since old one had gotten where bypassed pretty badly (not too unexpected since it had been there since 1964 I believe). Just 2" galvanized but it took both of us and a 4-ft cheater to break the union open to get it out of there, and this well house is a tight block building much more weatherproof than that shed so things are in pretty-near pristine appearance.
I was going to put a ball valve in there but after that decided the fewer joints to break loose the better so we replaced it with another gate valve as they have standard length so didn't have to break any more joints free...besides, the well folks had been around almost a week by then and had service call come in for others who were out of water in
100 F temps so let 'em get on their way soonest seemed reasonable at the time. :)
It'll probably be a chore when he gets around to breaking this system open, too, so the less to be done the better is probably _agoodthing_ (tm) ...
The next question you should ask is "How do I adjust the air pressure in my bladder tank?" The temptation to ask if college boys know how to air car tires was really strong but I resisted it. There's always Flip Wilson's excuse.
Well, it might not take much for you, but I didn't notice any of that!
I did notice something funny in the pressure switch today, which does seem to have an electromagnet inside it (I think) which is energized only when the power is on and when the pressure is low (I think).
I'm not sure yet, but I can make it go on and off with the power on by moving this plate back and forth, which has two little dangled contacts.
Contacts pushed open with a stick:
Contacts pushed closed with a stick:
With no power, the plate will not snap back once I open it. With power, it will snap only if the pressure is low (got to test more). If the pressure is higher, it won't snap back if I opened it up manually.
That means there are at least three states to this contact plate when there is power: a. Open (I can easily manually open it and it will stay open) b. Closed (I can push it closed but it won't stay closed) c. Energized closed (It was originally closed and it stayed closed)
I need to test again but I have to use up the water pressure again.
BTW. The sparks at the contacts when I make or break a connection under power are green. I normally see yellow or blue sparks in things - but these are a very pretty green!
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