Water pressure booster pump won't start consistently - do you rebuild the bearings?

My outdoor water pressure booster pump occasionally won't start, particularly after doing some irrigation watering.

It never happened before under those circumstances, but it happened twice in the past week - where letting it sit with the breakers turned off for an hour and then turning the breakers back on seems to "fix" it temporarily.

The booster pump works for weeks if I don't irrigate - but if I do - the booster has failed to start twice - once I heard screeching sounds until I shut the breakers - but this last time I heard nothing.

Then for weeks, it works fine - with normal sounds.

I'm perplexed - but the first thing I'm assuming is that it's heating up due to bearings - I'm not sure if that's the case - but the screeching wsa something - even if I don't hear it now.

Do you guys with wells periodically rebuild your water pressure pump? This one could be as old as from the 80s.

Reply to
Arlen Holder
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You're joking, right?

My main questions for those who have experience with such things, are:

  1. What do I look for to find the switch for low bladder pressure?
  2. What experience can you impart on testing/replacing motor bearings?
  3. If I replace the motor, what are the important specs to match?

Anyone who says "call a plumber" for something like this doesn't belong in this newsgroup and never did. They're out of their league. The people who do belong in this newsgroup know something about home repair other than how to use a telephone.

Moving forward for those who have experience troubleshooting motors, here's the plate on the motor: General Electric AC Motor Thermally Protected Jet Pump Motor Mod: 5KC39QN1157AX HP: 1 HZ: 60 V: 115/230 PH: 1 RPM: 3450 CODE: L

I'm not sure how a "jet pump" motor differs from a "pump" motor (do you know the difference?) but I found this troubleshooting guide:

It's not hard to find a "jet pump motor" on the net, but it is almost impossible to find *that* jet pump motor on the net. What matters?

The GE Model Lookup for repair manuals & parts diagrams comes up broken:

The well-tank not-empty switch is continuously closed (as it should be):

There must be a bladder-pressure switch somewhere but I don't know what to look for yet - does anyone here have that knowledge of what to look for?

The gauge, if accurate, is indicating 70+ psi pressure at the pump itself:

The relay doesn't appear to show any visible anomalies that I can see:

I think (but am not sure) that thermal overload may be occurring:

My main questions for those who have experience with such things, are:

  1. What do I look for to find the switch for low bladder pressure?
  2. What experience can you impart on testing/replacing motor bearings?
  3. If I replace the motor, what are the important specs to match?
Reply to
Arlen Holder

IDK why you call it a pressure booster pump instead of just a pump. It sounds like it's a jet pump and the only one. Jet pumps differ from a piston pump in that they can bring up water from depths that are lower than the max lift of a piston pump, which I think is like ~28 ft? They use two pipes, one pushes water down the well to the other part of the pump where a jet action picks up water and it comes back on the other line.

Frame size, voltage, speed, hp and maybe if it's suited for a wet location, etc if it's exposed.

The thing you're calling the relay is the pressure switch.

Reply to
trader_4

70 psi is probably the shutdown point. 50 psi will probably be the pump starting point.

The thing you're calling the relay is the pressure switch. Notice the tube leading away from it.

I'd probably just replace the entire pump. There will be wear on the impeller so it won't be at its most efficient.

Reply to
Dean Hoffman

I don't have any experience w/ jet pumps; we're too deep here so everything is submersible...

But, certainly sounds quite probable is a bearing problem and likely happens only when you irrigate (so far, the rest is coming) because it's running nearly if not continuously so doesn't have interval to cool down between.

Q? is when this happens have you felt for temperature and determined which bearing(s) are the ones--is it the motor or the pump?

Is there a manual thermal reset on the pump or is it one of the internal bimetallics? If there's a red reset button, if it had tripped you'd have to manually reset; if no external reset then it could have tripped and but would automatically reset once cooled off. If it's getting this hot that that's happening, it's time...

If there's a local shop, and you can work out the schedule, I'd probably take it to him and let him do the bearings unless you've got the toolset; we've got a really good local shop and for something like this he would in all likelihood be able to get it in/out in an afternoon if scheduled it. If he couldn't, would likely have a loaner or the well folks should.

OTOH, if it's all as old as you say may be, there's something to be said for new and at your leisure rebuild the old one and you've got a spare... :)

Others answered most of the other regarding pieces-parts; there's no need for the identical motor down to being GE; form factor, HP and service rating are the key items...

The first Q? still is to determine whether it's the motor or the pump with the problem, however.

Reply to
dpb

No bearings in the actual pump. They rely on the motor's bearings.

Reply to
Dean Hoffman

...

...

I allowed as had no 'spearmints with jet pumps... :)

Thanks.

Reply to
dpb

The motor will likely have two standard bearings.

I won't know what to buy until I take the motor apart, but the downtime is crucial because there won't be water pressure in the house.

I tried to find a parts diagram on the web for the model but I can't find one yet. General Electric Jet Pump Motor 5KC39QN1157AX HP: 1 HZ: 60 V: 115/230 PH: 1 RPM: 3450 CODE: L

I will call GE tomorrow, where I'm not beholden to GE but if I replace the bearings, I need to know ahead of time which ones to order.

The real problem first is that I don't know what's wrong, because it's clearly intermittent.

What's irksome is that I don't understand the sensing pressure mechanism.

It seems to be MISSING a sensing of the OUTPUT pressure at the bladder.

Reply to
Arlen Holder

You're the second person to mention this, so I should be very clear that the well itself is 500 feet deep and it has, AFAIK, its own pump at the bottom.

Clearly I have separate breakers for the well pump versus the booster pump. They are two different pumps.

The well pump brings up the water and stores it in tanks that are 10 feet high. The tanks don't develop enough water pressure for the house, so the booster pump boosts the pressure for the house.

If the booster pump is off, then there is water that just dribbles out the faucets in the house. They will dribble for 10,000 gallons, but they just dribble.

If the booster pump is working, then there is water pressure at the house. Lots and lots of water pressure (a garden hose shoots dozens of feet).

Suffice to say the booster pump has only one purpose and the well pump has a different purpose.

Yes. That's what I think also. It could be the pressure switch - but that wouldn't "heat up". The booster pump would heat up.

Although ... I did put my hand on it when it didn't go on, and it wasn't even warm. But it's inside at the bearings where it matters most.

Ah. I just answered that (I respond in line). The pump, surprisingly, does not feel in the least hot the second time this happened. I was there within whatever time frame it took for the water pressure to be used up, as I was using the hose at the same time as the irrigation was on.

SO I was probably fifteen or twenty minutes after the pump failed to go on (or however long it takes to use up the pressure in the big blue bladder).

I was *surprised* that the pump housing wasn't hot in the least. SO it might be the pressure switch.

I'm not sure what the gauge is reading because the gauge may be reading the pressure of the 10 foot column of water that is only a few feet behind the pump.

So the main thing I have to figure out is what that gauge is trying to tell me.

I looked for a red button, but didn't find any. I think it's internal.

Yup. I agree. It's NOT getting hot, but I'm not sure I got to it in time. It wasn't even warm though, and pumps are heavy metal, so you'd think they'd be a heat sink - so I'm not positive that it thermally reset.

That's why I need to troubleshoot. My only indication that it's the pump is that I heard a squeal which made me immediately shut the breaker. The squeal stopped - so it was definitely the pump. But that squeal hasn't happened again and that was a few days ago where the pump has gone on hundreds of times for sure since then.

I've done bearings before. And I've taken things to a local shop before. In general, in California anyway, it's not worth the labor at $200/hour.

Bearings are cheap. The problem is that every time I take apart an outdoor motor, the long bolts are so frozen that they snap. This motor is "indoor" (it's in a shed) so it may be easier. I don't know. But that's the downtime issue.

The downtime matters because there is no water pressure while the pump is out of commission.

That's my plan. Unless it's the pressure switch.

I have no idea how old it is though. But it could be the original for all I know.

I think it might NOT be the pump though. That's why I need to ask how the pressure switch works.

The one thing that perplexes me is that I don't see ANY indication of the bladder pressure being measured.

It looks like what's being measured is the INPUT pressure to the pump, not the OUTPUT pressure.

But that makes no sense. Does it?

The "frame" is what matters, I think, as long as it's about 1HP and 3450 RPM, which is the easy part. I'm not sure what the "frame" is though. Is the "frame" on this sticker?

Yup. The pump appears to have two switches that control it. a. The water level indicator relay (which is known to be working fine!) b. The booster pressure indicator relay (which is a mystery to me)

The "mystery" is that there is NOTHING coming out of the booster by way of pressure sensors that I can see.

The gauge seems to be INPUT pressure, but that makes no sense. Who cares what the input pressure is. The OUTPUT pressure is what matters, right?

Reply to
Arlen Holder

Thanks for mentioning that the 70 psi is the shutdown point. I'm guessing it's measuring that right off the bladder, even though the gauge is on the pump itself.

Given that the gauge generally reads the same all the time, that 70 psi "might" also be the pressure of the column of water in the full tanks (I'd have to do the F=P/A math) where the tanks are ten feet high a few feet behind the motor).

One thing I need to look at is whether the pressure gauge shows a lower pressure when the home has no water pressure. I "think" it always shows the same pressure - so that's why I think it might be showing the pressure of the water column BEFORE it gets to the pump (I'd have to check in the morning as I had not thought about it until now).

Ah. That tube. I didn't notice it until you mentioned it!

Hmmmm... so the pressure coming out of the bladder is NOT being sensed. I don't see *any* wires or sense tubes coming out of the bladder tank!

That is interesting. If I bypass that, the pump should go on and off (depending on if it's normally open or normally closed).

For it to be a pressure switch, it needs a 'sensor' somewhere. Maybe the sensor is under those contacts?

I don't disagree. I've disassembled plenty of pumps, where almost all the time the outdoor water pumps have these long bolts that break EVERY damn time. I spend most of my time trying to get them out.

Meanwhile, the bearings are frozen onto the shaft (especially if they were making noise).

The good news is that bearings are dirt cheap - the bad news is that taking apart the motors generally is impossible due to those long bolts that break.

I don't mind replacing the pump, but I can't find an exact one on Google. The model number just doesn't match anything. I do have an email that I sent to GE and I will call General Electric in the morning to ask where I can get a replacement.

I'm not beholden to GE - but I have to match that 'frame'. Do you have advice as to what the frame is? I don't see it explicitly on the label. Do you?

Reply to
Arlen Holder

Thanks for your helpful advice.

I agree with you. It's a pump. Specifically, it's a 1HP 3450RPM pump.

The job, AFAIK, is to boost the pressure coming out of the filled water tanks, because, the tanks are comopletely full so the well pump (which is

500 feet deep) is working just fine.

Without the pressure pump, there is no water pressure inside the house.

The label, on the outside, says it's a "Jet Pump", whatever that means. If I need to replace it, I am guessing I just need to match the bolts.

In this case, the well has its own pump that is 500 feet deep. There's nothing wrong with the well pump as the water tanks are full.

There's plenty of water in those tanks. There's just no pressure when the pressure pump fails to turn on.

I am sure this is a two-pump system.

  1. There is a pump inside the well (deep down), and,
  2. There is a pump outside the tanks (on the surface).

The pump deep down is working just fine as the water tanks are full. There's plenty of water.

There's just no pressure. The pressure comes from this pump.

It's in a shed. Nice and (reasonably) dry. Here is the label. General Electric AC Motor Thermally Protected Jet Pump Motor Mod: 5KC39QN1157AX HP: 1 HZ: 60 V: 115/230 PH: 1 RPM: 3450 CODE: L

I agree with you that I think the only spec that matters is: a. The frame size - *where is the frame size listed?* b. The voltage - this is running off of 110 it seems c. The speed - this is 3450 rpm d. The HP - this is 1 HP

Ah. I didn't realize that relay was actually a pressure switch. How on earth does it *measure* the pressure?

How can it sense the pressure from OUTSIDE the water supply? This is a key question because the reason the pump isn't going on could either be the pump is going bad - or - the pressure sensor is going bad.

Reply to
Arlen Holder

All I'm asking is advice from someone who has troubleshot these things.

  1. How does that pressure switch work (so I can troubleshoot it)?
  2. If I replace the switch or pump, what specs matter?
  3. If I replace just the bearings, what else would you order to replace?

Those are my main three questions. Do you have helpful input on those three questions?

I apologize for pointing out that your comment about "call a plumber" wasn't appropriate for this newsgroup.

All of your questions are off topic - and none of your posts so far are intended to be helpful - that much is clear to all.

But I will faithfully answer your questions, even though this entire post is a waste of time since it doesn't help anyone solve the problem at hand, which is a basic home repair issue.

Of course I do. I'm a degreed electrical engineer for heaven's sake. But I always will admit that the theory doesn't apply to the practical.

So having a degree in EE doesn't mean I know how to fix pumps. I readily admit that.

For example, they NEVER cover pump bearings in college. They don't cover frame sizes. They don't even cover pumps, per se (they do cover motors).

If that's your advice, then it's clear you know nothing of helpful use. I'm sorry to be blunt. But your advice is a complete waste of time. For you. For me. For everyone. It just is.

Again, platitudes. What you say is what a grandmother would say. You can't be helpful in a group called "alt.home.repair".

Why don't you just man up and admit you know nothing about pumps? I can admit it. Why can't you?

Jesus. If you're so afraid of your own shadow, why do you bother to post anything to an alt.home.repair newsgroup?

The fact is that I know nothing about pumps, but, you've shown that you too know even less than I do.

Plus, your posts just waste your time, my time, and everyone elses' time.

What are you talking about? It's a booster pump for heaven's sake. Not a nuclear reactor.

All I'm asking is advice from someone who has troubleshot these things.

  1. How does that pressure switch work (so I can troubleshoot it)?
  2. If I replace the switch or pump, what specs matter?
  3. If I replace just the bearings, what else would you order to replace?

Those are my main three questions. Do you have helpful input on those three questions?

Holy shit. I said I'm an EE. What do you want me to do, post my degree for you? Assume that I know all about volts and amps (and how to design chips, for heaven's sake).

Having said that, being an EE doesn't give you any experience in pumps, although the operation of motors is covered in theory for sure.

But "bearings" aren't covered. Neither is how to get the pump open without breaking those long bolts. Nor is how to fit a new pump to the old housing (the frame, so to speak).

None of that is covered in a 5-year engineering program. You can argue that you think it should be covered; but it's just not.

I don't make the EE curriculum. I just ask the questions.

Jesus Christ. If you're so afraid of your own shadow, you don't belong in this newsgroup. You just don't.

If you *truly* have experience in troubleshooting pumps, you'll be able to answer the simple questions posed...

  1. How does that pressure switch work (so I can troubleshoot it)?
  2. If I replace the switch or pump, what specs matter?
  3. If I replace just the bearings, what else would you order to replace?
Reply to
Arlen Holder

On 8/13/2018 10:54 PM, Arlen Holder wrote: ...

Ah! That's significant new factoid...

OK, what you've not shown picture of is the connections to the well pump other than just the box but not where the signal comes from.

We run just off pressure in the storage tank; the pressure switch is

40-60 with no additional booster. Sounds like you're running an essentially unpressurized tank and relying on the booster pump for distribution pressure entirely.

...

I'd suspect that's highly unlikely to have caused the previous noise...the question will be when it fail next time to look at position of contacts; did they fail to close? If they function and you've got power, then it's the thermal switch that's cut out.

Not really conventional frame number; the "jet pump motor" describes the mounting flange arrangement which is what you have to match to the pump.

...

Never seen water level as input; what would help would be to see what the inputs to that relay come from...it's not possible to tell which pipe goes/comes to/from in that mess of stuff hooked to the tank...are you sure somewhere along there there isn't another pressure tap going to the well pump pressure switch? I don't know what "level" they'd be measuring or where that sensor would be...that and an overall plumbing diagram is what we're missing.

That's common pressure at the outlet...was pump running or off at the time?

75 psi is pretty high for domestic water altho if you've got long runs and small diameter feeds there may be sufficient pressure drop before it gets to the house...
Reply to
dpb

Thanks for asking. I guess it's common to have only one pump, but I definitely have a separate pump underground for the well, and the tanks are unpressurized. They're open to the air at top (so to speak in that they have a manhole cover and a vent at top.

It's night now, but here's a picture taken during the day a while ago:

Let me know what you want a photo of, as I do realize a photo is better than me trying to explain it.

It's good to know your pressure is 40 to 60 psi, where mine seems to be, in the photo, at around 75 psi (give or take a few). What I'm trying to figure out is where the pressure switch is located, where people told me the tube goes to it which puts it UNDER the relays in this photo.

I guess the right side of that motor *holds* the pressure, which seems strange to me that a motor would hold pressure at all - since I would expect the bladder to hold the pressure instead.

But there is no sensor wires that I can see at the bladder. It's odd to me that the pump holds the pressure for such a long time.

I agree with you that the noise can only be one thing. But the symptoms don't indicate a bad motor either. It wasn't in the least hot when it made that noise for example.

So what I need to do is *test* that pressure switch. But how?

I'm confused. Are you saying all 1HP 3450 RPM single-phase 120VAC "jet pump motors" have the same mounting hole arrangement?

I'm used to frame numbers like "56F" for example, but this doesn't seem to have a frame number.

This is the wiring diagram to the first of the two relays outside on the shed wall - but this relay is for the full tank switch:

This relay is working properly as it is pulled *in* which it should be, because there is a switch INSIDE the water tank, that indicates that there is enough water for the pressure pump to run.

As far as I can tell, there is no external wiring for the pressure switch other than it goes from the fusebox to the pressure switch directly which you can see in the black electrical conduit in this picture.

The pump was most definitely OFF when all these pictures were taken. The pressure never seems to vary, but I admit I don't look at it all that much.

The house is a few hundred feet away and the runs to the other side are, oh, I don't know, 500 or more feet away. I'm not worried, right now, about the pressure being high as it has *always* been high (I can use a garden hose as a weapon almost).

Right now, too much pressure isn't my problem. :)

I need to figure out how to troubleshoot that pressure switch. And, I need to buy some bearings for that motor. And line up a spare motor (in case I break the long bolts).

Reply to
Arlen Holder

Duh. I'm an idiot!

I just noticed the FRAME number on that motor plate! Right where it should be!

*It's "FR 56C"*

I don't know why I didn't see this before. (Nobody else did either - even though I had posted the picture).

Sigh. That at least solves the mystery of the frame number!

Reply to
Arlen Holder

That makes things infinitely easier to look up for replacement because this is all that matters, I think.

  1. Horsepower = 1HP with a service factor SF of 1.4 (i.e., 1.4HP full load)
  2. Frame = 56C
  3. Power = 120VAC single phase
  4. Locked rotor code = L (9 to 10 volts)

With that, the first hit is this $261 motor:

Reference on the service factor (SF):

Reefernce on the locked-rotor code (L):

Reply to
Arlen Holder

The pressure sensor is the pressure control switch that you previously called a relay. It has a water pipe connection on it. Those two nuts adjust the cut-in and cut-out pressures.

Now that you described the whole setup, I see why you're calling it a booster pump.

Reply to
trader_4

56C. You can probably buy the bearings at an auto parts store. The pumps I'm familiar with (Berkeley) have this seal. Replace it. I'd probably just buy a pump of the same horsepower if I was replacing it. It should handle the job. The wiring, circuit breaker, etc are sized for that horsepower. Just out of curiosity, is the wiring code compliant?
Reply to
Dean Hoffman

It's static pressure of the system at the point; there will be a check valve down the well so it doesn't run back down when pump is off..

It's quite possible it always reads the same pressure because it's frozen up...and/or the orifice in the base is plugged.

The "sensor" is just a calibrated spring; you can adjust the on/off pressure within reason by the turn screw.

...

Reply to
dpb

On 8/13/2018 10:54 PM, Arlen Holder wrote: ...

...

Where do the leads for what you keep calling a level switch relay come from? There's got to be _something_ for it if it indeed is anything more than interposing relay.

Reply to
dpb

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