IDK why he insists on debugging the whole system. I guess if he wants to know how it works, that's OK. But he heard a squeal coming from the pump, sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't. I'd simply wait until it's not working and see if there is voltage on the motor. If yes, he knows the pump is the problem. If not, then he can just follow the voltage.
He keeps looking for a sensor or wires coming out of the tank. Yet he posted a picture of a pump pressure switch, clear as day. That is the "sensor" and that has to have a connection to the water coming out of it. It doesn't have to be hooked directly to the tank, it could just be connected to the water line coming out of the tank.
'Cuz it's clear he really _doesn't_ know how just how it works nor does he even recognize what some of the pieces-parts are so doesn't understand what is/isn't possibly significant...and appears to be one of those that doesn't do anything until has studied it to satisfaction whether it needs study or not... :)
Yes, since the system is all tied together, for the purposes of control "pressure is pressure" at the point relatively close to the tank. He should investigate the possibility the gauge itself is stuck; it's immaterial to system operation but if not functional could lead to confusing the issues thinking there's pressure when there's not...the one here was stuck last month when we hooked up the new well--I hadn't noticed until we opened the system and the needle didn't move... :)
I'm still curious about this so-called "level" sensor, though...somewhere he talked about there being open tanks; I suppose if he does have a larger reservoir besides the pressure tank somewhere else there could be a level sensor in one or them...in that case the leads will run out wherever that is.
What isn't shown clearly is how the well pump is controlled; whether there really is a second sensor or whether that other relay is just the secondary to it off the pressure switch on the booster pump.
I bet this is a low flow well and the tanks are there to slowly accumulate water over a long period. We had another poster here, Danny I believe, that had this kind of system. Are they one and the same? IDK. That they both had a penchant for over analyzing, taking lots of pictures would suggest they are. But I didn't think Danny was the kind of guy that would be mounting tires at home or fueling his car at home from cans, so IDK.
I would bet that the submersible is controlled by a level sensor in the storage tanks and that another float serves as an interlock on the pressure pump to keep it from running if the water in the tanks is all gone.
But again, seems to me the only thing he really needs to do is see if there is voltage on that pump when it's not working. He said it was squealing, but I guess it could also squeal if it was out of water, so maybe that's a possibility too. Come to think about it, being out of water would also fit with it happening only when it's used for irrigation. But that could also fit with a motor going bad, the problem showing up when it's used the most. You'd also think that if the water wasn't flowing, one of the first things you'd check would be if the tanks were empty, but who knows.
Agreed, I was simply suggesting it would be interesting to actually know for certain that is the setup.
As far as diagnostics, that's certainly where to start when it isn't functioning; then see if thermal switch tripped it and work backwards.
Certainly there's almost certainly new or rebuilt in the near future given there is squealing at least on one occasion; who knows what noises it makes while running and nobody's around before it quits or does shut off in time to not actually fail.
That's a good call probably on the low-capacity well and reason for storage tank(s)--I'm not used to having to do that; there's always plenty of water in a hole here for domestic wells...so the trickle over longer time concept doesn't come into play and don't actively think about that kind of installation. The level/float switch then does make perfect sense to control the actual pump.
Wonder if he knows what the down-hole pump capacity/HP rating is...that'd give an idea what its output is.
The new well here put out 75 gpm w/ an almost wore-out oilfield 10 hp rig for the test/cleanout run...it probably has at least 3X the capacity; put a 3 in the hole that's between 25-30 gpm which is plenty for the house and cattle...
That means I really only need a "jet pump motor" that is frame 56C that is
1 HP (service factor 1.4 or thereabouts).
What's amazing to me is that the pressure must be held in that motor rubber o-rings because the pressure tube is on the output of the motor. That's amazing that it holds the pressure so well at the impeller.
I just replaced the flywheel pilot bearing in a Toyota so I do realize that I can "find" a bearing locally if I have it in my hands, but the problem is downtime - especially if it's a non-standard bearing.
Bearings are dirt cheap - but they have to be the right size & type. I tried GE but they don't provide parts diagrams, they say.
Thank you for pointing out the seal, as this pump must have a similarly amazing seal, since it holds pressure at the impeller side of the pump at about 75 PSI without any leaking that I can determine.
That's just amazing. Suffice to say that seal will be hard to source also - without parts diagrams anyway ... so my main goal is a parts diagram but GE says they don't supply them.
I tried a local pump place that GE recommended (Johnstone Pumps) but they only sell to pros (and they didn't find a lookup for the model anyway and they told me nobody rebuilds pumps - too expensive to do so).
I agree. The downtime will be only an hour or so, compared to days to source the parts if I have to take the pump apart first.
I agree. The simplest path is to troubleshoot the reason why the pump is intermittently not going on, and, if that indicates a problem with the pump, to just replace it and then take my sweet time rebuilding the old one (or turn it into a wood lathe or disc sander).
I'm sure it is as everything else is code compliant (AFAIK).
I see the water pipe that someone mentioned, where it's also a relay based on all those contacts visible on top.
I guess it surprises me that the front of the pump where the impeller must be is "pressurized" since that's where the metal tube is coming out of.
The pump must have an EXCELLENT seal to hold that much pressure for so long without leaking past 75PSI at any time I've ever looked.
That's good to know as I didn't know what exactly they adjusted.
The pump appears to have only one purpose, which is to boost the water pressure of the bladder from ambient pressure to about 75 psi.
I've seen these bladders everywhere where I live, so, they're pretty common (every single home has one).
It's odd that someone said the "water tank" is pressurized, as that would be astoundingly crazy to pressurize a 10,000 gallon set of tanks when all you need to do is pressurize these little 4-foot tall bladder tanks.
Thank you for being helpful on the questions asked.
The 10,000 gallon water tanks are unpressurized - they simply hold water. They can't be pressurized as there is a manhole cover on top that fits loosely and there is a three or four inch vent in the middle of the top also.
The only tank that is "pressurized" is the four-foot tall blue bladder tank that is pictured in the previous set of photos inside the pressure pump shed.
I'm sure of that, which is why asking here on a.h.r can be fruitful.
You bring up an interesting point that the pressure switch may be adjustable, which, if I can find the adjustment, would be useful perhaps for troubleshooting purposes.
As shown in the photos, you're correct the nameplate has everything I need.
1 HP (Service Factor 1.4), single-phase 115/230VAC, Frame 56C, Code L
It's the Internet that doesn't have any parts diagrams on the model:
General Electric Jet Pump Motor Model 5KC39QN1157AX
I called GE, which was a two-hour experience because GE sold all their motors to two different enterprises...
Fractional HP Motors went to Riegel Beloit at 260-416-5400
1HP & up went to Marathon/Century 800-541-7191
You don't want to know what happened when I called each of those.
I'm familiar with the "bulge" of the electrolytic starting caps but I don't see one in this motor (it could be internal - but probably not) - but that's a good idea to keep in mind for what to purchase ahead of time in addition to the bearings.
I can't yet find a parts diagram where Riegel Beloit told me that this motor was specially made for Marathon and then for Jacuzzi Brothers, so a parts diagram may be hard to find based on the model number alone.
Thanks for those URLs. As noted, I've replaced and rebuilt motors before, where the main issue is that of downtime so I want to source the bearings first. Once the bearings are in my hands, they're easy to source but it takes time if they're not standard sizes - so that's why I'm seeking a parts diagram first.
Well, if one has well capacity that is sufficient for demand, the "normal" way a system is configured is that the pressure tank _is_ the pressurizing element for the distribution system when the pump isn't running and there is no secondary booster pump.
The air pressure in the tank is set at -2 psi relative to cutout setpoint when the tank is empty and the bladder/diaphragm is then compressed/stretched to produce exit water pressure on demand.
The system here operates 40-60 psi with an 80 gal pressure tank capacity; when the pressure drops below the low cut-in, the pump kicks on and supplies both demand and refills the tank to pressure at which it cuts off and the cycle starts over...
With a system such as yours you have an extremely large reservoir because (apparently) the well can't keep up to demand and so must be able to pump into the holding tank whether there's current demand or not in order to have sufficient volume on hand for demand.
Or, demand rate could possibly be very high if one were doing large-scale irrigation or the like, but normal residential demand plus several hundred head of cattle doesn't tax this well at all even on 100+ F days when they hit the water pretty hard.
Granted, it would make no sense to try to pressurize the whole system under that operating scenario, but as noted, while that's what's common where you are, overall that's a relatively uncommon installation type; definitely not what I was thinking of when we started!
As for how good a seal; 75-100 psi isn't all that much to try to seal; also note and check -- given the age of the system there's at least a reasonable chance that pressure gauge isn't working at all but is frozen up, particularly if it's not an oil-filled one but direct.
The water pressure compresses the spring until the contacts lift (open) when pressure reaches the setpoint thus stopping the pump, when the pressure drops the spring relaxes as the bottom support goes away and eventually the contacts close turning the pump back on...
Given your system configuration, I'm still curious as to what size pump is down-hole if you know???
Also, is the a production ag operation or the like so irrigation demands are extremely high volume as compared to "just" lawn. 10,000 gal would be about 1/3-rd of an Acre-inch of water or an inch over a third of an acre which would be pretty hefty for most residences...
I tested the gauge pressure just now by turning off the power and then running the garden hoses at the house until they petered out. Interestingly, at the booster pump shed, the hose on the wall did NOT peter out, as the pressure gauge barely dropped from a bit over 70psi .... to about 66 psi when the water was an unusable dribble at the house Gauge at 66psi
I could tell that the blue booster tank was 'empty' as I could tilt it by hand ever so slightly when it is empty but I can't budge it when it is full.
And yet, when I turned on the faucet on the pump house wall, it was fine!
So that gauge pressure is really almost completely input pressure!
The gage appears to be working as there was plenty of pressure (i.e.,
66psi) "at" the booster pump shed - but none a few hundred feet away at the house.
So it appears that the "static pressure" of a full tank of water in the
10,000 gallon tanks is about 65psi. The booster pump boosts that up so that the water won't just dribble at the house.
It has to be the input pressure, actually, just looking at the front of the motor, which is a big cast-iron casing - that must be the pressure area:
Thanks for the description of the pressure sensor and switch, where I took a look today at the *bottom* to see the pressure pipe coming in:
I see there are two nuts that can be calibrated at the front of the sensor:
And two sets of power lines going into the back of the sensor:
And a closer look shows the input tube of water pressure on the bottom. The wires appear to have two circuits from the side.
The pressure sensor switch casing says "Pumptrol" on the outside.
Printed inside it says Control Circuit A600, Square D, Class 9013, Ser B, Type FSG-2, On 30, off 50, Form U,
The setup is only now starting to make sense to me now that folks explained how the pressure switch works and where it was!
The pressure switch was in plain sight all along - but I thought it was just a relay of some sort (which it is - but it's more a pressure switch):
This is the fusebox panel (which contains circuits for the well pump also):
There are two "relays" that must be closed in order for the pressure pump (aka booster pump, aka GE Jet Pump Motor) to turn on:
The water tanks must have water in them
The pressure must drop below a given preset value
You can see the first relay in this picture where it's the relay on the left (ignore the right relay - that's a relay for the well pump itself):
It's hard to notice from just that photo, but that left-most relay is pulled in an eighth of an inch when the fuse panel allows electricity.
This is exactly what is supposed to happen - which indicates that the big water tanks themselves have enough water in them as there is an "empty" switch that will *open* that circuit if there isn't enough water. Of this I'm positive as I had issues in the past when the tank ran dry due to me forgetting to turn the power back on so I climbed on top of the big water tanks and pulled that level sensing switch out and flipped it upside down and the booster pump started working when I did that.
The second relay is, of course, the pressure switch & relay which is attached to the booster pump motor.
It's not a relay, it's just a pressure switch. You say you're an electrical engineer and you can't identify a switch vs a relay?
It's purpose is to suck up water and force it into the tank until it reaches the cut-off pressure.
I think they were referring to the pressurized water tank, not the unpressurized storage tanks. The setup you have is not the common type where there is only the one pressurized tank. I suspect you have a low flow well and that;s why you need the storage tanks?
I think I understand your point, where generally, debugging can only happen after I understand how the system works.
Once I understand how it's supposed to work, only then is it obvious where to check for water pressure and voltage.
This is true. Too true. :)
I think that can be arranged ... all I have to do is use a lot of water, I think, we I can do later today in the irrigation cycle.
The main question, of course, is WHERE to look for voltage, so I guess I should test it now while it's working as I haven't figured out these wires yet...
This is the right answer - which is to wait for the pump to not go on when it should, and then see if the problem is the pressure switch or the pump itself. a. If it's the pressure switch, there will be no voltage coming out b. If it's the pump, there will be voltage at the switch but no pumping
I just have to figure out which leads that is.
Only when people told me that the thing I thought was just a relay is actually the pressure switch (and relay) - where this pipe on the underside proves it.
You are correct. That input pressure tube is attached to the cast iron "front" octopus of the motor itself - which is where the water both comes in, and appears to go out to the blue bladder tank.
You are correct that I didn't know how it works until only about an hour ago. For one, I didn't realize that the pressure switch had a water connection until someone mentioned the pipe!
In my defense, I never said that I understood how it works - I was asking how it works.
A few things that I figured out today that people told me earlier are not intuitive, for example, the 66 PSI is static pressure that is always there, and the 75 PSI is all that the booster pump seems to add but the whole "front" of the motor where the impeller must be is open to not only the bladder tank but the big water tanks too ... so that is not intuitive!
I tested the gauge sort of by opening the water supply at the wall of the pump house when the main house had no water pressure - and while the gauge read 66 psi, the water pressure was fine at the wall of the pump house.
So I have no reason to disbelieve the gauge pressure, especially as there is definitely a ten foot high column of water coming into that "front" cast-iron end of the pump motor:
This is the wiring diagram for the water level sensor:
The level sensor is EASY to test and it is working fine!
The water level sensor simply floats in the tank. When it floats, it closes a switch in the level sensor, which closes the circuit you see above in the wiring diagram which pulls in the relay you see below:
That level sensing part of the circuit is definitely working (and it can be manually operated simply by pushing it in with a stick like you see in this picture):
The well pump that is 500 feet underground has its own curcuit breaker, and it has its own relay plus it has a box to determine when it's free running (i.e., no water in the cavity 500 feet down) and it has a timer box also.
The well pump circuit breaker is well marked in this picture and the three right-most boxes are all for the well pump (they have nothing to do with the booster pump).
The well pump is easy to test as it goes on and off all the time. It won't go on if the tanks are full (that's what the second of the black relays are for) and it won't go on if there is no water in the cavity 500 feet down (it will spin freely and one of those two boxes will detect the current change and shut it down) and it seems to also have a timer (I think that's the third box).
Water static head is 1 psi/2.3 ft elevation so that would require 65/2.3 = 28 ft height above that point.
That experiment illustrates the point raised before of you have extremely high pressure losses in the distribution system it appears or the house is up on a hill, maybe?
OK. Actually, you have to be right - so thanks for clarifying that as there is no transformer that I can see to make a magnetic "switch".
The main question now is where to check for voltage:
Obviously the green is a common ground. There are two blue wires going to the motor. It's hard to tell colors from that picture so I might clean them up a bit with the power off.
The two black appear to be the input lines but it's hard to tell from that picture.
Nonetheless, with a common ground, it makes sense to have four lines, where two are likely the input from the fuse panel and two are the output to the motor.
I'll clean it up a bit and check the voltages, where I would expect to have
220VAC on the input at all times that the water tanks are full but nothing on the output until the pressure drops to somewhere less than 70 psi.
The water tanks are in parallel with each other and they are definitely on the same concrete platform as the pump house so their water height is all that matters as they are directly behind the booster pump shed and on the same concrete platform.
I'm guessing that they're 10 feet high ... they may be a bit taller ... but not 15 feet.
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